Randall, good point...i was going to bring 'up' that I really like that Kato, on these latest units, painted the 'warbonnet' striping over the horizontal grills...whereas, on previous runs, they left the grill area 'stainless' (sic)...to the uninitiated this seems like a goof, but, of course, as you mentioned, the actual units really were painted like this before the grills were attatched...one can see the stripes under the stainless grills on the real units...the stripes just happened to be applied where there were no 'cutout' in the carbody...and again, as you stated, Ksto did NOT paint the 'red' part of the 'under-the-grill' part of the carbody...it was almost like they were expecting one to add a photoetched grill to the sides---I have a set of Plano etched grills for every F unit I've acquired; as soon as I acquire an F unit, I order an etched grill for it...all mine are FARR vertical-style slit grills, save for one horixontal style I have for one B unit (I like having a random B unit show up in the consists that has a horizontal style grill-many of the B units were left with the as built horizontal style.. Many before me have done some amazing historical research into which units had which grills, and when they were changed or not, and when they were changed back, and when they were 're-numbered' and when....GEEZ...it makes my head swim just thinking about it...yet....lol...i still consult the sites of those 'that know' so I feel I've done my best to model an accurate model... here's the site I go to the most for the passenger F's (from the Santa Fe Historical Society-I simply MUST join this group!...the Warbonnet ALONE is worth the price of admission!) http://trainweb.org/jfuhrtrain/CF7frames/F7Phases/F7phase.html http://trainweb.org/jfuhrtrain/CF7frames/Grilles.html glad you mentioned the windshield 'glass' on the IM units...I had completely forgotten about that...I like the concept and intention of what they did on these units...i just don't like the actual result...I do wish that AMB would get more into N scale with their line of laser cut window inserts and roofwalks designed for specific models, just as they do in HO (this would save my behind in the E6 re-build...replacing the cab window glass is an excercise I haven't quite decided how I'm going to tackle yet... Wolfgang, being from New Orleans (and south Louisiana) I grew up with the Sunset route, and the Sunset Limited (my very first train trip at the age of 4...), AND knowing Hwy 90 through Louisiana and Texas like the back of my hand, I detect a mid to late 50's version of this train!...the Kato PA's are still very available (although I'd want to re-number them in the 200's T,N,&O numbers...and it 'seems' as if some passenger cars are available that are 'fairly accurate'...still don't know enough about the actual consist to know one way or another...I believe this train would be a great candidate for a future Kato passenger set (although I can see a 20th Century happening before a Sunset Limited....) if you have any info about this train, or can steer me to some good reference material, I'd certainly be grateful... sincerely, Bruce
A Sunset Limited would be wonderful. But- I think you are correct-that the 20TH Century would be a more likely next candidate. Then again- who knows what Kato will do. As far as a reference book for the Sunset- Check this out: [TABLE] [TR] [TD="width: 8%"] [/TD] [TD="width: 100%"]The Sunset Limited Michael Jarel, Dennis Ryan and John C. Signor Southern Pacific H&TS 2006 0965720888 / 9780965720885 NEW CONDITION BOOK The Sunset Limited: Southern Pacific's Premier Train with a Southern Accent No expense was spared on the Budd Company built streamlined Sunset Limited of 1950, a train to this day widely regarded as representative of the zenith of passenger train development in the United States. It could be that Southern Pacific took exceptional pride in this train because it traveled solely on SP rails for its whole journey unlike other trains which were joint efforts with other railroads. Lavishly illustrated with photographs, menus, advertising and other ephemera, this is the complete story of the Sunset Limited, the train that was created to cater to the moneyed elite of the gilded age, that went on to become the backbone of a premier passenger service over the Sunset Route and in so doing helped to define all that once was Southern Pacific-the West's greatest transportation system. Anyone familiar with this train and the Southern Pacific will recognize many of the photographs and illustrations taken from official SP archives and popular rail enthusiast photo collections. A number of captions are in error, but sometimes this is because the notes taken by SP company photographers were wrong to begin with. Still its nice to have a book bring most of the known information about this train all together in a well laid out and reproduced book. This book surely will be a collectors item one day. Chapters: Introduction, pp. 7-8; Beginnings, pp. 9-28; The New Sunset Limited - 1924, pp. 29-54; The Glory Years, 1950-1958, pp. 119-166; The Long Slide to Amtrak, 1958-1971, pp. 167-205; Epilogue, pg. 206; Appendix, pp. 207-208; Bibliography, pg. 209; Acknowledgments, pg. 210; Index, pp. 211-215. Southern Pacific H&TS, hard cover with jacket, 216 pages, 11 x 8.5 x 1 in., color and b&w photographs and illustrations. sphs885 I have it, and- it is a great book. Highly recomended. Take care, Wolf [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]
Well, thanks, and it reflects the odd reality of the way they looked toward the end. They still washed them, and apparently the washer would get the carbody pretty well most times, but trucks and underframe started to look like a plowed field with only a residual trace of silver in there. The only really distinctive thing that photo lacks is the 'bow wave' of dust above the lead axle on the nose. But maybe when you're dragging boxcars you're not moving that fast anymore... And compared to the original paint, I'm still convinced that it was aging out toward the orange cast. I've never heard a good explanation. I think it had to do with the chemicals in the locomotive spray washers, as you don't see the top of the nose worse than the sides which would indicate normal fade from the sun. And most 'Indian Red' paint got grimy - darker - with age, like the cabooses, as the grit got to it, but those didn't hit washers. If you see a freshly painted F-unit beside one of the Class of '72 (and at least one got painted red and silver darn late) the difference is pretty stunning. I use Testors "Chevy Engine Red" to approximate that faded color moving toward an orangish cast. You can't weather the red out that way, it isn't dirtier or lighter, it's a whole color shift. Maybe not as bad as the BNSF "Peaches", but the same idea.
I'd have to agree with you, it was just the way that the paint aged and faded, can't chalk it all up to sun bleaching/fading... One thing I've noticed, going back to Kato's factory painting, is that, not only did they try to improve paint as they re-released new units in the same lineage, as far as details, per the warbonnet stripe and kick plates, etc.; they also altered the paint hues....put these latest F releases next to the earlier ones and there's a distinct difference in the red...definitely leaning more toward one with a little 'orange' to it... But, it really shows on the last run of PA's....like the one's here...the original release had very dark red for the warbonnet...these look as if they're pre-faded...i love the look...I actually sold my original units and searched for another 'A' unit from this run...I'd love to find the A-B set, but so far, no luck... Sincerely, Bruce
Not forgetting the PA's.... added a few more details...windshield wipers (after shaving, sanding, and polishing the molded ones from the windshield...and some more ALCO style sunshades, done with whitew decal striping... much more to do, but these units, during my era (1956-57) remained pretty 'clean'.. still need to replace the stirrups with GGold Medal Model versions (not quite as easy as the F unit stirrups, as the Alco handrails protruded below the body and was somewhat integral with the stirrups...these will have to be very carefully trimmed from the shell before attatching the etched stirrups in order to preserve the molded handrails) The center mounted ATSF numberboards have to be added and decalled, and, finally, the easiest but most effective addition to a stock ATSF unit...painting the truck sideframes 'silver'...I'll use Tamiya Flat Aluminum as it best represents, in scale, the way the the painted trucks looked. I'll do this last, just before final weathering... After each little detail addition, I like to photograph the units on the 'in progress' layout...it documents the additions and helps me to visiualize railfanning the layout...instrumental in determining future scenery... Thanks for looking, Bruce
Hello all... a couple of things ATSF PA... all the stirrups are replaced with etched parts...all windshields ploished, sunshades added,...almost ready to paint the trucks, pilots, and final weathering... BUT! one more detail, peculiar to ATSF needed to be added to the cab units! The centered cab roof numberboard housing.. I've been considering how I was goingto do this...scratching one for the E3 was easy...it's a much shorter and smaller housing, and...I only needed one... The Alco numberboard housing is longer, more streamlined, and needed to be 'mass produced' in that, I needed three of them... I remember when I had gotten into n scale modelling about 14 years ago...a company called Sunrise made some really neat details...(wish they were still around, I could use their speed recorders!) They put out a white metal piece for this numberboard-however, I remember them not fitting all that well, and being difficult to shape better... I found a much simpler 'solution' just looking at the Kato shell for a bit... The ATSF and Rio Grande PAs have the smaller 'side mounted' numberboards, as opposed to the large, EMD style, corner mounted ones...on the newer release, these are seperate pieces! A quick look on the Kato USA site, under their Alco PA parts revealed that they're sold seperately... so... a quick order placed...5 days later...test fitting has begun! the part has to be seperated from the half that inserts into the bodyshell...but the shape is DEFINITELY correct!...all I need to do is blend the seams a little, a few careful swipes of a sanding stick...then paint matching, mixing, and decalling... The best part is that this method is muh easier to duplicate exactly for the other two cab units... Thanks for looking, Bruce
Ok, that's it. I've had it. I'ma sending all my detail work to you. Jealous and envious as...well... I tell you. You haven't missed a beat. It all looks mighty fine to these tired eyes.
Bruce, did you order the PA undec shell, or are the number boards available separately as your post suggests? Looking good! Thanks, Otto Modeling Cajon Pass circa 1950
Otto, from Kato USA, the numberboards are available seperately...they come in sets of two pairs, unpainted... you get two pair of the 'side-style' (ATSF), plus two pair of large style....I'm going to try to see if I can use the large style to add those to a future ATSF E8m unit... Sincerely, Bruce
Did some of the E8ms have large number boards? I only recall them looking like this, (number 83 on the right).
here are a few pics showing some mods to E8m's... however, these are, obviously, during the 60's ....so who knows when the larde numberboards were added...not sure about during my 1957 era...
Great stuff, arbomambo! I know you're still working on the units, but when you get to the right stage, I'll offer here what I learned weathering my Kato Fs and PAs. Here's a comparison of the rear of the Kato PA1's, subtle weather on left, unweathered on right: Here's a few things that may help you on the F7A's: You may also want to close-couple the F's and the PA's (if you haven't done so already) using Unimate couplers: The F7's will use short-shank Unimates on both ends. The Kato PA1s (and the E8s), because their coupler spacing is closer to prototype, will require an asymmetrical Unimate setup (i.e. short-shank on one end and medium-shank on the other). Here's a link to a PowerPoint that I did to document that: http://home.comcast.net/~atsf_arizo..._using_asymmetrical_Unimates_by_John_Sing.pdf Here's a picture of the weathered PA1: Hope all this helps. Great work you got going there.
John, thanks a bunch...lol...i found your page and pics and bookmarked them before I even acquired the current units!...LOVE your work... Back when I had lived in Austin and had first forayed into N scale, I had been doing only modern power and rolling stock, although I had painted and weathered a few ATSF F units for a friend...I remember using Floquil silver to paint the trucks back then...now, I prefer the Tamiya flat aluminum...to my eyes it appears much more like the paint Santa Fe used on all their trucks and pilots..at least 'in scale'.... Actually, I already have short shank Red Caboose (unimates) couplers in the rear pockets of all the PA's...yes, very 'close coupled'...but they track very well on the curves of my layout (minimum 15" radius), and look fantastic!...yes they are a little more close coupled than the F units, but not ridiculously so...the Z scale couplers in the pilots also make a very prototypical close coupling to the first head end car in the consist... I'll post some pics here in a bit before I run to work... Thanks again, Absolutely LOVE the weathering on your units...that's about as far as I want to take my warbonnet power... I still haven't figured how I want to represent the area underneath the grills on the F units...I'm definitely not going to cut out the openings in ther body shell...I'll either paint the 'open' areas black, or use appropriate width decal striping, before adding the Plano grills...all of my cab units are getting the Farr 'vertical' grills...so I've been careful to pick numbers that reflect that..all the B u7nits will get them as well, save for one that will have the Plano 'horizontal' grill overlaying the one molded into the Kato shell... Again, love your work..thanks for the info! Bruce
I favor painting the radiators and whatnot behind the grills in gunmetal. Often these were painted silver, but of course they weren't solid but the plastic bodies often are, and I find the gunmetal doesn't do a bad job of simulating something that has silver tubes with open spaces (deep shadows) in between. And I believe that the first few of Santa Fe's E-8m cab units had the flush number boxes, but the later (higher-numbered) ones were built with the F-7A style projecting boxes, and that they remained as built. If I'm right about that, then it was only 80, and maybe 81 and 82 which had the flush-mounted boxes.
acptulsa, yea, all the pics I've been able to find of the E8ms have the E-style flush numberboards except for these three...and these were obviously taken 'later' in their lives...I'd love to be able to find a reference pic of one in the late 50's with the F style boards...If I end up modelling an E8m, I'll more than likely start with and undec shell, and paint it myself...I'd love to be able to accurately portray the truck difference from the standard E's...but, since I doubt that will happen, as there is no easy way to do it...(plus, I don't really know enough about the differences in the trucks!) John, here are some quick pics of the PAs with the Red caboose couplers in various 'lash ups'...
