Hi George, I know that IMRC will reply and do the right things to rectify the problems. We expect them to stand by their products and it would be entrepreneurial suicide for them not to make good on the mistakes. Here's a really bad analogy... since we're at the beginning of football season. Four years ago IMRC shocked the N scale world with announcements of new F series and Tunnel Motors. With a great deal of hype and fanfare we were all ready for a great model railroading season expecting them to be in the SuperBowl of model trains. But, with each release of a model, IMRC fumbled and bumbled their way to losses which infuriated even their staunchest of fans. Eventually, those fans will stop going to the dealers because they can't stand to see the ineptitude for the price they're paying for those models. They'd rather stay home or go to a movie. Obviously... I'm really unhappy with the Miami Dolphins and the Miami Hurricanes. LOL :teeth: BTW: As you know... I've accepted inaccurate models from IMRC and not complained. The Aspen Gold - Four Stripe FT's are not prototypically correct. The difference is... that IMRC wasn't going to make a correct FT for the later D&RGW years (after 1951) when they were repainted and fitted with the angled numberboards, 'frog-eyed' marker lights and different porthole arrangement. If I were to run these FTs... only the most knowledgeable D&RGW afficionados would see the discrepancies. Of course... I chose to accept the inaccuracies... I have no reason to complain. Actually, on these F7B units, the 'even more subtle' inaccuracies would be missed by most knowledgeable F series modelers. So essentially it's not the error that is the problem... it's the continual run of errors which wears away at IMRCs supporters... particularly me. I'd love to reserve some SP & WP F7's units... but... not until I see the F7Bs fixed. (actually I already have reserved an ABA SP set from you) I do remember Atlas being burned at the stake in the 1980's because they made inaccurate GP9's and RS11. They never recalled those models... but we had to accept the errors because they were one of the only manufacturers in N scale that made a decent running model. Things are a lot different now... everyone expects excellence in all facets of an N scale model. I guess we don't want to go back to the 1960's to mid 1980's 'laisse-faire' attitude that manufacturers stuck us with.
Well put Cal. I quit "going to the game" for this reason. The fumbles, fumbles, fumbles...............at "playoff/superbowl" ticket pricing.
Grandpa "Joe" and all tuned in, Yep, life is full of misunderstandings and misinterpretations. I've always respected Grandpa's input here so this isn't meant to be a personal affront to him. Let me see if I can make it a little clearer. What worries me is: Our personal "Ideology" or "Ideals" sometimes dictates how we buy our model railroad equipment. It allows or disallows what we consider acceptable or unacceptable. Maybe the model in question comes close enough where I can make it work with some minor alterations. However, If I wait for the perfect locomotive or passenger car to come out... I may die before experiencing the pleasure of operating a model train or building a model railroad. I'd rather have the joy of operating something that comes close... then to do without. If you get my drift. From personal experience I know better then to blame anybody other then the one who ordered a product into manufacturing. Sometimes the hurry to get something out and sold dictates the end result...errors included. Once it hits the dealers, vendors and finally the hobby shop employees.... it's to late to make changes. The name of the game is to sell, sell, sell, sell what's on the shelves and to order what's new or available...after the stock in store has sold. Should those of us as employees worry about something being absolutely authentic....it's not likely we will be selling. The domino effect is I won't be providing for my family or those who depend on my sales Ie., the boss and his/her family. I believe it is safe to say most of the customers that buy model trains are doing it for the experience. Most model train enthusiast are actually train enthusiast and buy what appeals to them. One of the reasons we sold so many Santa Fe F type locomotives in the Red Warbonnet was because it was appealing and looked good. Lionel's sales records... will prove that. Most are happy with a caricature of the real thing... if you know what I mean. I hope that clears the air a little. Just trying to put my thoughts down so it will be easier to understand....what I mean...by what I said...or you thought I said....but you heard. Yeah, I think you got it. The key for me is to have fun and enjoy the hobby. To correct what I can, when I can and to know the difference when I can't. Thanks for the comeback and the read.
Also well put Rick. I think that this "error" by IM has come to this level of discussion for several reasons: Everyone has an opinion on what is good or bad, and everyone looks at the same picture differently. As you stated, there are various levels of "close enough" for our models. Each person has to decide if "close enough" is "good enough" for them. I know for me, as time passes enjoying this hobby, what I used to find "acceptable" is now "not acceptable". Maybe it was my ignorance of many things, but as I learned more about things, I wanted certain things to be "close enough", but pretty darn close too. Let's face it. IM is not "catering" to the "newbies" of the hobby, who don't know the differences in phases, correct paint schemes, etc. They are making models for the more demanding/serious to prototype modelers. They raised the bar, and "stepped up to the pump" by offering "see through" fans and grills on the tunnel motors. The "F's" have see through grills and "applied" grab irons. To me, and this is just my opinion, they took a chance, and offered what used to be a model, that only a "skilled modeler" could create/detail, and "mass produced" it. And, this is where the problem begins. Super detailing that is fragile, advertising stating the "correctness" of the model, and pre production "hype" by many, all got "the masses" ready to buy. When the units started arriving on the streets, reality started to set in. Many are pleased, some are "overwhelmed", and some aren't happy. Perception, and the "good enough" now come into play. Oversized bent/warped grab irons, bodies that don't sit correctly on the chassis, excess glue on add on details, don't bother a person as much.........................if they were the ones that "attempted" to detail a piece of rolling stock. Once again, good enough/close enough come into play. IM is standing on "the stool" offering products that they do. It's a dangerous place because, once again, they are going after the more discerning modeler, and all modelers are getting exposed to their products via forums etc. Emotions now come into play. Many who thought that it was "close enough" are now finding out that the "B" units aren't close at all. Some aren't concerned about it, and I'm sure some are upset, but just won't admit it. We're on an emotional role now, and I agree with the statement that IM has to have a chance to respond. This will be an interesting story.
My first reaction to this whole thing was , "oh no not again..." I'm tired of seeing pictures/protoypes/artwork and having the finished product turn out completly different either as something that was correct but not shown in the ads/dealer info (IM CA-3 caboose lettering) or wrong (PCM SP E's,etc). I have cancelled more stuff in the last year than I ever have in the previous ten years. I could probably live with the B-unit issue as I probably wouldn't have noticed if I didn't know about it. My bigger beef is the fact the NP's were incorrectly done in single headlight version which is not correct and is a whole lot more obvious. This issue was one of the issues on the Atlas forum topic. I cancelled my single NP F7A that I had ordered but I'm still keeping my five SP F7's. As models get more detailed there is more expectations and more to pick on if things are not right. Personally, for N scale, some of these details would be better served as finely molded-on details rather than oversize separate details which can distract from the appearance. Some errors like the fan issue are not obvious while other like the headlight are. People who just want a NP F7 will be satisfied while other modelers will not. Its all a matter of personal choice on what someone can live with or what gnaws at them. Peter
I have contacted IM via email about the single-headlight NP yesterday morning (I guess it was 4 AM Colorado time ). This to me is far more obvious than the reversed side panels on the B. I would never have figured that out myself, so I am not too bothered by it. Yes, I would have preferred a more "correct" B-unit, but I can live with it. The missing second headlight is harder to swallow: NP did not purchase any F3, F5, F7 or F9 with a single headlight. So compared to all the other A-units in my roster (repainted Katos) it is very obvious that something is missing. And IM has the correct door with a second headlight. I am curious on their response. Winterization hatch: I am pleased that they are excluded, because the paint and lettering represent an "as delivered" engine (no numbers on the booster, no letter-suffixes on the A-unit numberboard, no "Radio Equipped" logo), and the NP F7 were delivered without winterization hatches. (See Schrenk & Frey, "Northern Pacific Diesel Era", Page 115). I personally like the "as-delivered" appearance. Operation-wise I am happy: I took my NP ABBA for a spin yesterday on my layout: Nice, quite, smooth, sure-footed, great paint and lettering, pulling power like crazy. Functionality is all there, no problems whatsoever. There is some glue visible behind the Steel grilles, but I plan to hit them with a black wash anyway. They are probably better applied than I managed with my Plano grilles on Katos :-(( Cheers Dirk
I read another account that the NP F7 units were delivered with only one headlight and were eventually modified with two. At any rate someone posted a picture of an ex-NP F7 in BN that shows one headlight: http://www.trainpix.com/BN/EMDORIG/F7A/744.HTM Now I'm sure these units had gone through several modifications over the years, so maybe it's just an issue of what year IM chose to model after? Could NP have been running with both one and then two headlights in the same paint scheme?
I added a poll regarding the IMRC F7, but, it really is about any model from any manufacturer. Its at the top of the first page. In case you're wondering, I chose the fourth one... Concerned [might not want to buy]. That choice allows the respondant to judge how much the error may 'take-away' from the enjoyment of owning the model. I've accepted some pretty significant error on the D&RGW FT because I wanted the model in that paint scheme and the those errors don't bother me... I also knew they were there before I bought the model... so I chose to accept them. On the other hand, there are several manufacturers that make F7 units. Kato... when they feel like making them... Bachmann... eek... LifeLike... ugh... Minitrix... so-so. In reality... the F7 model has several potential competitors. An error by IMRC drops them into the "eek, ugh & so-so" catagory... and the problem is that IMRC shouldn't be in that company... that's not what we are expecting from them. It's actually possible the PCM could get into the F series fray as well. I had choices for F7s... I got rid of my LifeLike and Minitrix versions because of the pending releases from IMRC. My feeling is that the error puts them in the catagory of the engines I sold off... not good... specially when the ones I sold-off were purchased for less than HALF of what I pay for the IMRC models. There really is no way for ME to fix the mistakes... they would have to be sent back to IMRC. Ultimately... if IMRC does offer a replacement for the B units... I will be very happy. Otherwise I will feel somewhat cheated. Its sad to think that a few days ago I thought it was a pretty good model (remember, the shell still sits a little askew)... now... sigh.
You left off "I don't care, because I have no use for F7's", so I would not buy one under any circumstances. Personally I think the whole thing is a category 4 hurricane in a shot glass.
Yep... I know... but we want the manufacturers to do it right and I feel ultimately IMRC will get it right. I generally don't look at any of the modern engines (1980's to present)and if there are issues with them I would usually not get involve in the discussion. As some have said before... "if I didn't have a dog in the fight... It wouldn't faze me". Unfortunately... that same manufacturer of the modern loco may build a transition era diesel or steamer next... what if they overpromise and underdeliver something you really want?
Gregg .. it might be a hurricane in a shotglass to you, but for many, its a tempest in a teapot. My take on this is .. I put up with a lot of junk in Nscale over the years because thats all we had .. I have a box full of Bachman, Mehanos, etc that broke before running .. Now we have good mechanisms, and a couple of manufacturers (Atlas, IM, and to a lesser extent kato) that try to bring a realistic representation of real locos to the market place. Some here have characterized this as a misplacement of the sand filler hatch, thats not the case . .the IM models have more detail that shows, especially in the grill area, that prevent us from simply moving that sand filler to the other end of the loco .. With the quantity of research material on net, and in quality books, it shouldnt happen .. this is like going to your car dealer, and being expeted to buy a car with the trunk lid screwed to the hood mounts. Yea .. sh.. happens .. but .. these people are in the model train making biz .. I think they should have the qc in place .. I have no doubt that IM will make it right .. and all the whining, moaning, and griping aside, its a good thing that IM is making these .. Now, I guess I am a rivet counter by some definitions here .. I care that my models are reasonably close to the prototype .. I dont think that this mistake will doom IM .. but between this and the tunnel motor fiasco, I will be hard pressed to consider IM locomotives for purchase now or in the future ..
I'm a big fan of the Kato F7's. I probably would never have noticed the descrepincy, if you folks hadn't said something. I just got an ABBA set of them on ebay for 139.00! Not bad. otherwise I would have passed on purchasing them.
Chris & John That would be the subject of the next poll... if fixed... buy or not buy? (Deal or No Deal).
For those of you who are not yet bored with all of the hubbub... I spoke to Jada of Intermountain Railway today. Jada mentioned that the final decision has not been made on the F7B units. IMRC is still working out the logistics and will be discussing the matter with the hobby dealers to better ascertain the extent of any possible recall(s). IMRC will be posting more details on their website, probably by next week. Because of the large volume of the product out to dealers and end users, IFFF the final decision is to recall the units, the turn around time for replacement will likely be a lengthy one. While not yet certain, the likelyhood is that a recall would involve coordination through the dealers. Stay tuned for further details... hopefully from dealers who frequent this board.
Why No Company Statement Yet?? I have to admit that while I’m not someone who is angry with IM for making this error, I am a bit surprised that they have not yet released a statement of any sort about it. If anything I think they should have (at the very least) acknowledged that the issue was brought to their attention, they are looking into it, and will comment further on it soon. To me that’s customer relations 101. Puzzling behavior from a company that has a very good customer service reputation.
a few perplexing issues have arisen IMHO. I wonder if the manufacturer and the dealers are trying to keep the news of the errors 'capped' by not openly indicating this on their websites. Now... I know that sounds like a 'cover-up'... but... thats not what I mean. Obviously... until RalphH blew the whistle on the errors... the average modeler didn't figure out there was a problem. The more the news is spread by making a statement on the IMRC website AND the on-line dealer websites... the more people will be alerted about the mistakes and consequently the more returns there will likely be. I'm figuring that the knowledge of the error has been contained to the few model railroad forums there are. This hasn't been, & probably won't be, advertised in model railroad magazines and probably won't be posted on LHS doors to alert anyone. I was expecting to find some information on the e-tailer sites by now, warning, potential buyers of the problem. Perhaps they are contacting former purchasers and alerting new unsuspecting customers when the orders are made.... at least I hope they're doing that... if they [the dealers] know. As I mentioned on the earlier post, JADA of IMRC, said they are contacting dealers to gage the amount of exposure they may be dealing with. Whichever dealers were not aware of the problem since the story broke on Saturday... should know by the end of this week. I hope to see something on not only the IMRC website... but also the dealers websites to warn the custormers. THIS is why my post included the words 'dealers dilemma'. It certainly seems that every F7B unit is affected... that could mean over 10,000 units could be out there on dealers shelves or in customers hands. It's my opinion, that all customers should be informed of the error... and the customer should determine whether it's significant enough to them to send the shells back for replacement (if that is IMRC's final decision). I don't think it would be right to limit the annoucement of the mistake to the few thousand that read the boards... I'm hoping all parties involved do the right thing here.
The problem or fix is not the dealers resposibility,they are caught in the middle....Maybe they are waiting for IM's responce about the situation before they make any comments.I think that would be a fair assumption.
