Couldn't the time spent arguing over this be spent in better places? ie. installing another decoders or wiring another block on the layout. Its MODEL TRAINS guys and unless you are in a club it is YOUR model train and you can do with it what you want. If you like DCC (like me) use it and run 1000 locos at once. If you don't, than do without, the important thing is to enjoy what you are doing how you are doing it. Get off the computer and get back to the trains. Just my 2 cents. Please don't flame me to bad. Bryan
Let's continue to chill out, folks. DC vs. DCC has been a heated topic for a long time now--and heated discussions are to be expected--but let's not stray off topic nor cast aspersions at those who disagree or cite examples that reflect upon a newer generation's fascination with high-powered electronic platforms. For myself, I prefer DCC, due to the size of my layout. Converting legacy locos can be a royal PITA, and expensive to boot, both in cost and time and skills. The question of cost for block control of six (or more) locos certainly entered into my choosing DCC. There would certainly be a lot of wires, expensive switches, and relays under the layout. A wash--I doubt it, unless you consider the time and effort involved. I doubt also that any heated personal attack is going to change the future of model railraoding. A heated discussion is fine, and may have impact on the future; debating personal beliefs will have none. So, folks, chill. It's a worthwhile discussion; let's have it in a spirit of a colloquia, rather than a political debate.
I'll take that bet! My layout is DC that has 19 blocks. 19 spdt switches @ $.79 = $15.01 2 power packs @ $10 = $20.00 Wire, about $1.50 Total cost to wire my layout = $36.51 When a DCC system plus 27 decoders to equip my locos (and lord knows that number will only increase in time) becomes a “wash” with that, I’ll convert Nelson </font>[/QUOTE]Can I include the cost of peace of mind (for me anyway)? Quite honsetly, I like both ways of running, depending on the situation. I like big power lash ups and with different manufacturers, we all know that speed matching can be tough. DCC does allow this. Out of the few locos I've changed over to DCC, I like the Kato boards better. Pulling apart the Atlas frames makes my squirm a little and, they don't always cooperate. Then again, I have fat chunky fingers!
It seems like every time DCC is discussed, no matter where or what forum, personal attacks are started. There is no reason to call someone else ignorant or to tell them how they should spend there money. I can appreciate the passion associated with this topic but lets be civil to one another or the topic will be locked.
Wow folks, its just a hobby. Why is it when people choose a direction to go, they feel they have to defend it in such harsh terms? It's not automobile brand loyalty, sports, politics or religion. Gee guys, enjoy what you like and let others do what they like. No need to be trying to make converts out of the "other side" or try to insult them. Most folks are savvy enough to figure it out on their own without a bunch of arm twisting. Cool it down here a bit.
Yep, I agree, stupid post by me. Anyone know where the delete thread button is? Tony Burzio San Diego, CA
OK, folks. I've cleaned up this thread due to a direct request by one of the posters, and an implied request by another. I hope this is not viewed as "heavy-handed moderation." Instead, I hope it is viewed as complying to the wishes of the posters. Please PM me if you disagree. A heated discussion of DC vs. DCC is entirely appropriate here--let's keep it heated, but not personal. Pete
Admittedly, I do not run DCC, but I do read about it and try to learn. As I remember, the larger the layout, the more similar the costs to install DCC and DC. In other words, if you had a simple circle of track and one engine, then DCC would be very expensive per engine. But if you had a large layout, the DCC cost would be amortized over many, many engines. Also, the more complex the layout, the more relays, switches, etc., so the DC costs would go up. I am not sure how to factor in booster units, or what ever they are called. I looked for the thread on this, but I couldn't find it.
Admittedly, I do not run DCC, but I do read about it and try to learn. As I remember, the larger the layout, the more similar the costs to install DCC and DC. In other words, if you had a simple circle of track and one engine, then DCC would be very expensive per engine. But if you had a large layout, the DCC cost would be amortized over many, many engines. Also, the more complex the layout, the more relays, switches, etc., so the DC costs would go up. I am not sure how to factor in booster units, or what ever they are called. I looked for the thread on this, but I couldn't find it. </font>[/QUOTE]Flash: Booster units to create power districts are used when the amperage needed by the layout exceeds the command station's power. The JJJ&E has one extra power district to handle all the loco's that are sitting the turntable/engine yard and switching yard areas. The main line of the JJJ&E is controlled by the command station of my Lenz system. A booster controls all areas in a power district, and is wired to the command station. Surprisingly many N scale loco's on a layout don't require enormous amounts of power (amps). I did a study on this using my Lenz 100 system which has a 5amp rating. With two FT ABBA units each pulling 28 cars at less than half throttle, 36 loco's sitting on tracks with either the front headlight/rear headlight on; 20 turnouts; 25 sound only DSX decoders turned on and a dozen Bi-polar led signals in operation, the total amps used on the system is 1.56 amps. At 1/4 throttle the total amps used is 1.27 amps. With all units sitting on the layout the amps used was 1.14 amps. So there is plenty of power to spare for most DCC systems using just the command station. The booster is helpful when there is a concentration of power hungry "units" in a relatively small area. If the total amps used by a layout approaches 4+ amps with a 5 amp limit; dividing the layout into power districts is a must. Hopes this helps you in understanding DCC power and how it's delegated throughout a layout. I'm also glad to see that cooler heads prevail regarding this topic. Stay cool and run steam....
I broke down and went with DCC close to a year ago and haevn't looked back. A lot of the issues raised in this thread such as cost and conversion of older loco's made me hesitant to do it. But once I took the plunge, I haven't regretted it. A benefit that I enjoy the most, and wasn't expecting, was much MUCH finer control over the locomotives, I can have locomotives crawling and I do mean CRAWLING now. I buy the dcc equipped when I can. The DCC ready loco's from Atlas don't always want to run that great even with the replacement decoder boards. That's been the biggest problem I have encountered. The ones that come with the board factory installed have been flawless for me.
Southern Rail Fan: Occasionally a factory installed decoder on a Atlas loco will give you the error 02 message. It all goes back to the copper motor contacts of the Atlas loco. Stay cool and run steam.....
My own take on the issue is a _little_ different than most. I like the interactive throwing of block switches as my train moves through the layout. I also like flipping the switch on a turnout. Note: this memory is 30 years old. That said my thought is to start with DC and depending on a lot of factors transition to DCC on the main line, (while keeping the GandG shortline DC. The interchange track would be both. If i ever build a signifigantly bigger layout it will be DCC. I like the idea of "DCC Ready" locos but I would only be doing larger main line engines anyway, (please correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't they have more room for a decoder?).
Yeah, I am finding that's the problem. I am going to try the tip you gave about the solder on the contacts on my troublesome loco's. Actually feel pretty confident about it.
Southern Rail fan: Adding some solder to the copper motor contacts works well. Have fun... Stay cool and run steam....
I have heard that the 2-10-0 from Bachmann will come DCC equiped. I was concerned about this since I don't use DCC, but others assured me that factory DCC equiped locomotives can still be run on regular DC. I will most likely get one of the 2-10-0's. If I ever decided to go DCC, that would be one less bit of electrical work I'd have to do. I like the potential for operation, but I'll let the technology mature a bit before I make a decision. As far as cost of DCC equiped versus non-equiped locomotives, if it is only offered DCC equiped and I like the model, I will buy it.
Boxies: The Bachmann 2-10-0 will run on DC even though it has a decoder. The same holds true for the PCM E-7's. This is the way loco's will be designed in future releases. This is only the beginning... Stay cool and run steam.....
I used to do a lot of DCC decoder installations. I worked on contract basis for a local hobby store and also picked up a bunch of business by word of mouth. I have a milling machine so did a lot of milling of frames to hold decoders. I did everything from Z to G but mostly HO and N. I added all kinds of FX from sound, special lights to smoke generators. I programed them and ran them on my test tracks with a Digitrax system. I have a few DCC locomotives that I run at NTRAK shows. I am not intimidated at all with the technology. However, I personally still prefer straight DC for most of my own engines.
I've been done this road before. The only thing that gets a response from me is when totally wrong information is presented. This to me is a dis-service to N scalers. Factual information is what is needed so people can make up there own minds using information based on truth.. A lot can be learned from good debate based on truths.
Gee I missed most of this thread.. thank christ I didnt ask what or if I should put a church to put on my layout Chill out people. I think some people take this hobby too seriously, its a HOBBY, not the land of the giants. Good to see it calmed down though. Some good tips on soldering etc.. Since I've had 2 fingers sewn back on, this bit worries me, as the local hobby shop wants $50 per loco to INSTALL ONLY, and 4-6 weeks to do. Good sideline business for someone! For the bloke asking where Rail Enthusiast is, Melbourne Aussie. --- One suggestion I would make is a TIPS forum.. Instead of just disappearing into oblivion, keep them somewhere.
