Possible New Layout

poppy2201 Mar 26, 2009

  1. Grey One

    Grey One TrainBoard Supporter

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    Very nice.
    If your 1st or 2nd turnout of the yard was a left hand it would allow for longer yard tracks but it would not be as clean. Kinda of a trade off.
     
  2. Mark Smith

    Mark Smith TrainBoard Member

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    Just one suggestion: the mining lead seems to come off the passing siding too far from the mine. I know it would be a little tighter but I'd try to put the turnout to the mine on the last piece of straight track on that passing siding just as it turns to the left heading away from the mine. If needed, flip the mine building to the other side of the tracks. This would put greater space behind the propane dealer and create a greater sense of distance between those two operations.

    I like how you put a little curve in the track up top. That is nice.
     
  3. poppy2201

    poppy2201 TrainBoard Member

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    Mark Smith: Thanks for your observation. I always thought that it kind of looked wrong and I guess I just wasn't thinking clearly. I moved it down and slightly curved it in towards the inside of the loop. This allows me to keep the milling company building on that side of the tracks. The whole idea of keeping it to the right was so I could easily uncouple cars from the front without having to reach over the top of the building. Moving this now frees up more space for better utilization of scenery at the upper right and I think I will still have some room to place a few buildings to represent a town on that side of the layout.
     
  4. poppy2201

    poppy2201 TrainBoard Member

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    Another change I think might be in order. A small passing siding at the propane dealer in order that a couple of tank cars can be dropped off without fouling the main.
     
  5. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member

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    Charles:
    If you (or anyone using this plan as a starting point for their own layout) are interested in increasing operations options WITHOUT needing to add the extension module shown in some of the earlier plans, then consider fitting in a longer interchange track somewhere on the basic shelving. The plan below shows 4 possibilities but could be workable with 3, 2, or 1 of them...depending on how much real estate you want to devote to interchanges. Each 6 to 10 car long interchange track allows you to have 6 to 10 more cars available for moving around the layout without having to make the staging or passing tracks any longer.

    The plan below attempts to incorporate 2 staging tracks, 2 towns that can be worked by trains traveling in either direction, flexibility in siding arrangements within each town (so you can be as complex or simple as you wish), interchange track(s) that can be accessed from both the visible portion of the layout and from staging, and reversing loops so locos (or trains) can be turned between operating sessions.

    If the reversing loops are not necessary or if you would rather avoid the slightly more involved wiring of a reversing loop or wye, just eliminate the short crossover between each town's siding track and its interchange track so the interchanges are only accessible from the optional mainline turnouts instead of from the towns.

    [​IMG]

    If you decide to include either or both of the optional interchange turnouts on the main, then (for some people) positioning the turnouts 6 or 8 car lengths from the end of the town sidings--like the optional left turnout is positioned about 2.5 feet from the Easttown turnout on the right side of the plan--will create a sense that the Interchange track is not in Easttown, but is farther down the line...making the layout seem a little bigger.

    OTOH, some people prefer locating interchanges within their towns so all of the switching activity is done in a relatively small portion of the layout and (especially if you are using a tethered throttle and/or turnout electrical switches built into the fascia or a control panel) all of the wiring for that town and all of its sidings is confined to a relatively smaller area of the layout. Putting the interchange turnout closer to the town (like on the left side of the plan) will make it easier to put electrical switches or turnout indicators into a single panel.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 10, 2009
  6. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member

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    Charles:
    FWIW, some comments on making layouts seem bigger or track plans seem less cluttered:

    The front half of your Plan 7 looks very clean and uncluttered...You have space to put in buildings and scenery without crowding. Will you be hiding the staging yard tracks behind trees or low hills...or will most of the tracks and yard turnouts be readily visible? How about the back half of the loop as it passes across the back of the layout...will it be hidden, too? If the yard and back tracks are fully visible, it may make the entire layout appear more cluttered or crowded to some people.

    Sometimes, using buildings, trees and low hills to hide some, or even all, of the back half of a loop makes the entire layout seem less crowded and the mainline much longer because the train disappears for a length of time before reappearing.

    Careful arrangement of easily removable low viewblocks reduces the Spaghetti Bowl Factor (SBF) by partially or completely hiding the back half of a loop and focusing the viewer's attention on the structures and tracks at the front of the layout. There is still the same amount of track in the same number of square feet, but the viewer can't see as much of it, so the SBF is reduced.

    If it is possible, you may want to consider increasing the narrow middle portion of the shelving to 18 to 22 inches wide. This will permit you to put in some realistic viewblocks and reduce crowding. Just introduce the slight bulge in the middle without increasing the distance to the corners...otherwise the 36 inch reach to track in the upper right corner of the plan will become impossible instead of just challenging.

    Some people use subtle differences in elevation to create a sense of separation when there is not the option of making wider shelves. Tracks running parallel to each other will seem to be farther apart from each other when there is a 1/2 to 1 inch difference in elevation, or when the space between tracks contains visual separators such as tree rows, fences, or shallow ditches.

    It is also possible to "separate" tracks by making the ballast color or rail color on the front tracks different than the ballast or rail colors on the back tracks. Likewise, using different colors or textures in the trees near the back tracks will make them seem distinct from (not associated with) the front tracks, even though the distance from the front tracks is not changed.

    Modelers can also increase "separation" by super-detailing the closer tracks and making the back tracks very plain, or using brighter and bolder colors by tracks in the front of the shelf and duller or more subdued colors by tracks in the back of the shelf.
     
  7. poppy2201

    poppy2201 TrainBoard Member

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    Dave: Thanks for your input. I don't have time to really digest it and reply right now as I am making final preparations for a trip to Florida in the morning. I will be gone for about 2 weeks and should have some time to go over it while I'm there. In the meantime I did a remeasurement of the room and have attached an image that I now call Revision 7c. As you can see, there was a miscalculation in the dimensions and the plan changed slightly. I should be able to take your suggestions and try to fit them in or close to it.

    [​IMG]

    Again, thanks for your insight as always.
     
  8. poppy2201

    poppy2201 TrainBoard Member

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    Okay, I'm back from my trip to Florida. The stay was longer than anticipated and I didn't have anytime to really work on the plan.

    The following image will be my new starting point for the layout. I bumped the middle section of the benchwork from 12" to 18", moved the Red Wing Milling Co. spur, added some trackage at the feed mill and added some 71" curve pieces in the yard area to angle it in some and give just a little more length in the yard.

    [​IMG]

    So as I said, this will be the new starting point and any suggestions or comments are always welcome.

    P.S. If anyone is looking for any of the previous images in the posts, I had to delete some images because of being over the limit in disk usage.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2009
  9. Mark Watson

    Mark Watson TrainBoard Member

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    :thumbs_up: I like it.

    Only think I'd like to see is the lead for the grain elevator track moved to the bottom of that siding. That way you don't have to go out onto the main to move cars from the siding to the elevators.
     
  10. Grey One

    Grey One TrainBoard Supporter

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    I really like the simplfied plan. I would encourage a compound ladder track in the yard. Cars don't couple / uncouple very well on curved track.
     
  11. poppy2201

    poppy2201 TrainBoard Member

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    Minor changes

    I made some minor changes on the left side. Moved the spur to the grain elevator down and went back to a straighter yard. I also am planning a river scene across the center with double track and single track truss bridges.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member

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    Charles:
    Your plan keeps getting better and better!!

    [​IMG]
    Some access issues to consider as you continue to refine your plan:
    1. When industry sidings are modeled behind the buildings they serve, it is sometimes difficult to see or reach couplers. If you shift the Milling Company building behind the tracks, you will be able to see and reach couplers much more easily. This same reasoning applies to the tracks by the Grain Elevator.
    2. For the same reason, you may want to reposition the Propane Dealer siding on the other side of the main, with the tank and office building behind the track instead of in front of it to ease access to couplers for this industrial siding as well.
    3. If you move the Milling Company building and Propane Dealer structures, be sure to leave visual and physical access to the turnouts:
    a. from the main to the passing siding by the Milling Company,
    b. from the passing siding into the Milling Company tracks, and
    c. from the right hand crossover turnouts between the passing siding and the main(just to the right of the double track bridge).
    4. The Feed Mill tracks are positioned in front of the Feed Mill building and offer good access for coupling and uncoupling. Having the main pass behind the Feed Mill shortens the passing siding by the Feed Mill and Grain Elevator and forces operators to block the main when working these industries. If blocking the main is a concern, it would be possible to lengthen the passing siding by running the main in front of the Feed Mill with the passing siding starting closer to the interchange track and ending closer to the bridge over the river. Entry to the 3 Feed Mill tracks and 2 Grain Elevator tracks could be from near the middle of the passing siding, giving room to pull an entire train off the main to permit one train to pass by another while the second is working either of the industries. Depending on the length of the train and the distance from the industry turnouts to the passing siding turnouts, it might even be possible to keep working the industries while a train passes by on the main instead of pausing on the siding until the other train passes and frees up the main again. (Of course, the need to lengthen this passing siding becomes a moot point, if you never plan to have a second train running on the main while these industries are being worked by the first train.)
    5. Repositioning the Grain Elevator tracks in front of the Elevator will ease access to couplers. I like how you angled the 2 Grain Elevator tracks to avoid any S-curve within the industry. If you can tweak the angle of the passing siding and main, you might be able to increase reliability when pushing cars onto the Grain Elevator tracks if cars are pushed through the straight portion of the turnout from the passing siding into the Grain Elevator tracks and the curved portion of that turnout leads back toward the turnout onto the main. Changing to a left hand turnout instead of a right eliminates the S-curve into the Grain Elevator tracks.

    Some scenery options (which you may already be aware of):
    Some modelers hide tight radius curves or loops behind trees and buildings so viewers are seeing mostly straight or gently curving tracks instead of the tight turns.
    1. For the loop by the Milling Company, it would be possible to create a low view block of trees outside the loop in the front corner of the lower right shelving and along the inside of the loop from the Milling Company building (repositioned behind the tracks) all the way to the front of the shelf. This will hide the loop if the trees are dense...or at least make it much less noticeable, if they are more widely spaced. If you wish, set the height of the trees at a level that hides the trains when viewed from inside the inverted U of the track plan, but permits seeing the trains when standing at the end of the shelving looking from the bottom (end) of the shelving up the right arm of the inverted U. The trees on the inside of the loop can be relatively close to the track for the back 2/3rds of the loop, because you will have access from the end of the shelving. When the main passes between trees on both sides of the track (e.g., the corner in the front near the Milling Company), leave enough room to permit track cleaning without knocking over the trees (Yeah...voice of experience).
    2. In the upper right hand corner of the plan, behind the Propane Dealer, the main and passing siding curves can be hidden by a low view block of trees. Again, set the view block height so leaning in lets you see the track and trains, but standing or sitting in the normal operating position hides the trains. Especially if you move the Propane Dealer behind the main, hiding the corner curves will make the layout appear much larger, because the Propane Dealer scene will appear to extend all the way to the backdrop in the corner instead of just to the middle of the shelf where a second scene would start if the curves were visible in the back half of the shelf.
    3. The 90 degree curve of 3 parallel tracks in the upper left hand corner of the plan could also be hidden behind a low view block of trees, hills, or buildings...but make sure there is no obstruction to the left handed crossover between the main and the Arrival/Departure track, or to the right handed crossover between the A/D track and the yard lead.
    3a. As an alternative to using trees as a view block to separate the yard lead and main tracks back in the corner from the main, passing siding, and Feed Mill tracks toward the front of the shelf, some modelers would raise the tracks in the back about .5 to .75 inches. This would not be a technically difficult construction change. If the entire back half of the dogbone plan were elevated, the 2 loops at either end of the inverted U could be used to rise/descend so there would be no turnouts on any grades and the total grade could be about 1% to 1.5% on the left side and less that 1% on the right side. This would provide more dramatic scenicing options, too.

    I like how you widened the shelving in the middle for your double track and single track bridges over the river. Would you be comfortable running the river at a gentler angle across the shelf? Perhaps it could appear from behind some trees about 3 feet from the right of the plan (about where the right hand crossover is behind the Propane Dealer), and then it would angle gently toward the front of the shelf to pass off the front of the shelf 3 feet from the left of the plan near the corner with the Feed Mill. This geographic change would "force" the railroad to gently curve their double main tracks away from the backdrop to follow along the river a little ways before curving back to run the bridges straight across the river. It would also provide more photographic opportunities (shooting the bridges individually or together from the front or right side while looking across the river, or individually or together looking along the length of the river). With the track in the back elevated slightly, this will offer very attractive scenes.
     
  13. poppy2201

    poppy2201 TrainBoard Member

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    Dave: I did a quick read through of your ideas and have printed them out to study further. Once I digest them more thoroughly I'll start working on incorporating them.

    As always your input has been helpful and with some more refinements I think this plan can be a very good one. Thanks again for your time and effort.
     
  14. poppy2201

    poppy2201 TrainBoard Member

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    Okay, here's the latest revision. I incorporated some of the changes and I have angled the bridges in an effort to provide more visual appeal.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member

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    Charles:
    Very Nice!

    My revisions with white-out tape and penciled scribblings didn't look too pretty, so I put this together using the drawing features in Excel.
    [​IMG]
    All turnouts along the main and in the yard have been adjusted a little to lengthen the passing sidings and to eliminate all S-curves through turnouts on the layout. When cars are properly weighted and turnout trackwork is smooth, you shouldn't have much trouble pushing cars through turnout S-curves, but some modelers prefer the extra insurance.

    I repositioned the turnout from the main to the Arrival-Departure track farther back around the upper left corner to increase the A-D track to over 4 feet long and to eliminate the S-curve through the turnouts. I'd encourage you to adopt this particular adjustment for the minor improvement in reliability and so you can run longer trains. I also put in some other yard features that I personally like in a layout design, but your preferences may differ. A caboose track was added by the 5 classification tracks, and a RIP track, ready track for fuel/sand/etc, and 1 or 2 Engine Shop tracks could be located between the Feed Mill and the river.
     
  16. Grey One

    Grey One TrainBoard Supporter

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    I do like the designs. Not a major issue especially if using remote control for the turnouts but the advantage of Poppies yard is all of the manual turnout controls are - more - easily accessible. If the yard was full flipping a switch would require reaching over cars.
     
  17. poppy2201

    poppy2201 TrainBoard Member

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    I'm still leaning toward the basic overall plan but I have made some minor adjustments. I'm going with 2 single track truss bridges (possibly do 1 truss and 1 plate girder bridge), changed the course of the river and the location of the propane dealer.

    [​IMG]

    Comments/suggestions welcome.

    Oh yeah, I also bumped out the center to 24" to allow for more scenery.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2009
  18. Mark Watson

    Mark Watson TrainBoard Member

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    I know it was suggested otherwise, but I miss both, or at least one of the industries (Propane or Mill) being located between the main and the benchwork, instead of everything within the confines of the main line dog bone. To me that gives more of a "going somewhere" feel, rather than trains just running circles around their destinations.

    Also, I liked the yard being slightly angled off of being parallel to the benchwork. But that's simply aesthetic. I do love how you've changed the main along the topside and the new river path.
     
  19. poppy2201

    poppy2201 TrainBoard Member

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    Another concept I have been playing around with is through staging, passenger trains, long runs, track at other levels for visual interest, and of course some switching, but mostly for long runs.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Mark Smith

    Mark Smith TrainBoard Member

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    The staging seems short to me. Is that going to be long enough for the trains you want to run? Also, how are you going to set them in staging? It's not a long reach back there, but it is a reach if the track is at about eye level. I'd think of using the double track near Red Wing Milling to bring trains on and off the layout and keep the yard for the interest of switching and creating some consists without having to stage everything. Just my preference.

    The switch back siding and two levels do add some interest. You'd have to decide if that is what you'd enjoy. You will lose the earlier layout plan's sense of greater separation between points with the station in the rear. It also brings that section forward which might make it feel less spacious.
     

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