I've recently completed laying the track in my main yard. I'm using EasyDCC as a control system. I know squat about electronics. Nonetheless, I want a functioning signal system. I assume that means block occupancy detection. Then there's DCC track-switch control with fixed decoders? And finally (I guess) there's fascia mounted switches to control the track-switches. The rub? Well, what comes next? I mean does a occupancy detection system operate the signal aspect display AND the track-switches? If so, then I won't need any decoders to operate the decoders with the DCC system? Nor will I need and switches on the fascia to throw the turnouts? Does a occupancy control system have its own software to tell switch-motors to move the throw-bar, or will something else be need, such as a computer? With a DCC system operating the track-switches, what are the physical actions needed to accomplish this? I could see it being quite cumbersome dialing up a decoder address with your throttle before your train passes through the switch. Would take a lot more time than reaching out to throw a fascia mounted switch. Really lost here with where to go next! What's are the needs and the proper order of installation? (also posted in the DCC forum) Rick You're invited to visit my layout by clicking on the link below... http://www.spcascadesub.com
This will be a lengthy discussion because there is a lot to cover, but I will kick it off with a few points. I am building a three-level layout that will have a completely functional CTC/dispatching/signal system. I only have track laid on about 1/4 of the lower level so far, but here is my rough plan of attack: Isolate the signalled sections of track into electronic detection blocks. I have each of my blocks isolated using insulated rail joiners. Each block has its own set of feeders that goes back to where my Digitrax DCC components will be installed. Block detection on the DCC system will be done via multiple Digitrax BDL-168 block detection boards. This will cause a message to be sent to the Digitrax Loconet every time a block becomes occupied or a block is cleared. I will be equipping all of my rolling stock with metal wheelsets and using resistance paint so that a piece of rolling stock will trigger block occupancy. Otherwise, only the locomotives (or other poered equipment such as lighted passenger cars) would trigger block occupancy. I will be powering all of my controlled turnouts with Tortoise turnout motors. I will be using Tortoises for any turnouts that are on my signalled mainline, even turnouts into an industry track so I will be able to tell the position of all turnouts in my signalled territory. Tortoises will be controlled by Digitrax DS-64 and/or SE-8C boards. This will allow turnouts to be thrown using the Digitrax DCC system. Every turnout will also have a fascia mounted manual switch that will throw a turnout (these are in place now on my layout since I do not have the full DCC installation in place yet). Manual switches can be "locked out" by the computer used by the dispatcher (see below). I will have a PC connected to my Digitrax system. This PC will be running JMRI software that controls the DCC system. I will be running the JMRI Panel Pro application on this PC that will allow a dispatcher to clear routes, set turnouts, etc. I will also eventually have the dispatcher automated with some custom software I will write so the layout can be operated with a computer dispatcher (this is years away and may turn out to be "pie in the sky", but I already have the dispatcher software talking to Digitrax so I think I will be able to pull it off). I will install signals just as the prototype railroads do: absolute signals at all control points, and intermediate signals in between control points. The signals will display their aspects based on the information received from the block occupancy board, based on the position of turnouts as indicated by the turnout controller boards, and also based on whether or not the dispatcher has cleared a route. The JMRI software will control the display of signals by collecting all of the information described in the previous step. The software will send commands via Digitrax Loconet to the SE-8C boards, which will in turn light up the correct signals. Operators will request clearance from the staging yard to the mainline from the dispatcher, then will operate their train according to signal indications, just as the real railroads do. Each one of these items can be discussed in detail, but that is what I have mapped out for my layout so far. Jamie
1st item I guess one thing at a time here. I know my next step is to install tortoise machines or R/C servos on all mainline track-switches (all those that would normally be included in a CTC system). If I choose to now install a block-detection system, do they (I suppose there are several) have software that will independently operate the tortoises, signals, and track, or do they just report occupancy, and require a human dispatcher to respond to the data it sends? I want to be able to operate the railroad without a dispatcher.
I'm quite interested in following this thread because this is the stage that I am at. Thanks for putting this topic out there
Rick, Check out the JMRI website. All of their software is open source so there is no charge to use it. It is a bit to figure out how it all fits together at first, but they do have a lot of very good online documentation. I would think you could use JMRI for the most elaborate automated setup all the way down to just manual running using their PD throttles and everything in between. It sounds like you want an ABS signal system as opposed to a CTC setup. In other words, the signals just give track occupancy and/or turnout position, but you still operate using manual control like track warrants (or nothing at all) and the train crew throws the turnouts. I would think that the JMRI software could do this no problemo since it will work for my full blown CTC steup and an ABS setup is much simpler. Jamie
Rick, here is another option for a company to use: Team Digital Home I'm using their block occupancy detectors, and if I want to implement signaling in the future, they make products for that. They have alot of info under the "applications" tab. -Mike
One of the big picture questions to ask and answer before you get into the details of a signalling system is 'Do I want to require that a computer be connected to the layout for the system to work?" Many signal controllers do not provide any logic evaluation to drive the signals. They are just LED drivers that can respond to a message telling them to turn an LED on or off. One example of this sort of device is the Digitrax SE8C. It works fine executing its intended purpose, but the signal logic must be implemented elsewhere. This is where JMRI or another program running on a general purpose computer comes into the picture. Our club is taking the approach that we do not want to require a computer for block detection logic and normal Automatic Block Signalling (ABS). We are using Team Digital SIC24s for block detection and basic signalling logic. They are flexible and have the logic functions we require. We are also using some CML devices. Now we may still eventually use a computer to implement a CTC system, but the basic detection and logic is in the layout hardware.
A very good point brought up Jim. One that I didn't know to ask myself either. That leads me to one more question if you would please. What is a CML Device?? Thanks for your response(s)
Thanks Jeff and everyone else responding. I'm STILL trying to get the sequencing of the installation process established. I assume I now I need to get the mechanical items installed — the switch machines (tortoise or r/c servos [great article on these in the Q3 MRH]). What's NEXT? I'm thinking would be whatever will initiate those machines movements. What is that?
Rick, If you are doing an ABS system (which is about all you can do without a PC/dispatcher), I think your steps will be as follows: Electrically isolate your track into blocks. Install block detection board(s) on your DCC system (ex: Digitrax BDL-168). Install trackside signals at the boundaries of each block. Install signal driver board(s) on your DCC system (ex: Digitrax SE-8C). Program the signal driver board(s) to respond to inputs from the block detection board(s) so the correct signal aspects are displayed. Notice in the above steps there is no reference to turnout control since that is not part of an ABS signalling installation. In an ABS system, turnouts are thrown manually by train crews when they need to enter or leave a siding, so you could use manual throws or turnout motors with either fascia mounted controls or ground throws. Another question for you: Are you familiar with the different types of signal systems? If not, check out this site so you can see how a fully functional ABS system works. This link is a page from Carsten Lundsten's website and actually describes the ABS signalling as used by the SP: http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/abs_st_sp/index.html#sp_single As another user above mentioned, if you plan for CTC now, you don't have to use a dispatcher--you can still just use the steps I outlined above. However, if you plan for ABS only, it may be more difficult later to upgrade to CTC. I think the only action you would need to take now is adding additional blocks in step #1 (to allow for future CTC control points). Jamie
Rick: I have just spent the last three months researching this very subject for my new Bear Creek Valley RR. In fact I have been following Jamie’s progress and also plan to use the Digitrax system with JMRI software. First off let me say “it’s not as complicated as it seems” once you break it down.:tb-biggrin: Let’s begin with an overview. You have two basic categories / systems for adding signaling to your layout. Strictly hardware (onboard logic) controlled or computer (software logic) controlled hardware. Each can be used with DC and / or DCC. Both systems use block occupancy detection hardware. That said you have three widely used options for detection (current sensing, photo sensing and IR sensing). You can use any one or a combination of all three to authenticate detection. Signal hardware will control the signals of your choice. Either system will do a fine job of controlling signal aspects. Next answer a few basic questions. Are you comfortable / uncomfortable using a computer? Are you comfortable / uncomfortable with good wiring practices? Are you comfortable / uncomfortable with numerous hardware components? What areas do you want to secure with signals? Mainline only, Mainline with passing sidings or mainline with passing sidings and yard to mainline crossovers? Hidden staging? Do you want manual and / or electronic control of turn outs (switches)? Rick, since you already own EasyDCC you may wish to use the hardware controlled option with a control panel of LED status indicators overlaid by your layout schematic. On the other hand you may wish to dump what you have for a totally networked system using a computer and software. In either case you will have both automated control and manual control capabilities of all functions. In either case you can expand your system as slowly or quickly as you want to.:tb-biggrin: Basic sequence for installing signaling would be as follows: Take your time and do not rush into this. Get all the facts before you do anything. Don't ignore the first two steps!:tb-rolleyes: Determine where you intend to place blocks on your layout. Determine where you intend to place signals on your layout. Buy and install your hardware. Wire your layout using accepted wiring practices according to the hardware being installed. For computer users – set up your computer and install your software. Program your hardware boards. Test the hardware. Resolve problems. For computer users – enter your configuration tables / panels / layout using the installed software. Test the software. Resolve problems. Begin running trains. Resolve problems. Enjoy the fruits of your labor. As for a user specific sequence to install signaling it would help to know which system you intend to use. Give us some feedback and we (TB members) will guide you through the process.:tb-cool: Jerry
I have a very similar setup to what Jamie described, except that mine is an ABS setup. Any advice I would give on the subject has pretty much been covered, so I will refrain from repeating what everyone else has already said. Just for giggles, here's my JMRI panel. Clicking on the switches will throw them, and there are push-buttons on the facia to allow local control. One thing I will add, though. If you're not interested in getting into hooking up and programming a computer to control your signals, take a look at Atlas's signal control system. (http://www.atlasrr.com/trackmisc/nsignals.htm) This is a plug-and-play system that will drive your signals in an ABS mode. They have all the logic to do turnout signaling and even more advanced concepts like tumbledown signaling. It is completely independent of any DCC, turnout, or other control system you might have, and all it does is drive your signals. If you're after an ABS system, this is probably one of the easier systems out there.
Would this be a true statement... With a complete occupancy detection system installed, regardless of the system, signals will be displaying aspects in relation to the block they protect, however, track switch position is NOT driven by the OD system. In other words, a track switch may well be aligned for a mainline route that is occupied and with a signal displaying a red aspect. It is up to the operator of the train , lacking a ctc dispatcher or computer, to stop and change the route provided by the switch, if that is a signaled option. All of this has sort of been "pie in the sky" because of few signal options, then today's BLMA announcement has taken it off the drawing boards and into a reality again.
Rick, I think you are correct. The ABS signals protect the blocks for following trains on the mainline; the sidings are not wired to the signal system. Remember in ABS territory, trains are operating under some kind of manual authority such as track warrants, so they will know that they are going into a siding or holding the main at some point. So a train could have a green signal at the start of a siding because the main is clear but may have to stop to throw a switch and enter the siding (restoring the switch to the mainline after the train has cleared). BUT... and this is where I am just making a semi-educated guess, even in ABS territory mainline switches will be tied in to the signal system. In other words, if a switch is thrown from the mainline to an industrial track, the signal protecting that block will show red even if there is no train occupying the track in that block. This is in the event that a crew forgets to restore a turnout to the mainline position after switching an industry. If you look at any railroad employee timetable, each signalled subdivision will list any non-electric mainline switches to alert the crews that these switches could be lined against their movement even on a clear signal. This is also why all of my mainline turnouts will be equipped with Tortoise turnout motors, even the ones that do not control turnouts at control points. My signals will show red for a block that is occupied OR if any turnout in the block is not set for the mainline. I'll use the extra contacts on the Tortoise to feed actual turnout position back into the DCC system. On another related note, did you see BLMA just announced searchlight signals for N-scale? http://www.blmamodels.com/cgi-bin/w...&&c=detail.red.htm&t=main.red.htm&itemid=1051 These will proably be ideal for your SP Cascade layout (I think the SP used this style of signal). Hope my info is helpful and not confusing! Jamie
