What you have there is a small boilered locomotive with the cab sized to the 1:96 scale person operating it. Why does prototype 2' gauge or H0n30 seem out of proportion to you? It's because you have a roughly 2/5 scale locomotive with a 1:1 cab sized for a 1:1 person. Narrow gauge was quick to adopt scaled down standard gauge equipment. What is the boiler diameter (real measurement) of your model? Now, if you look at pictures of early NG, of which that locomotive is a very good representation, they weren't yet using 28' boxcars. Early D&RG eight-wheel boxcars (1871) were 23'-7" long, 6'-2" wide, and 6' high with the floor 2'-3" above the rail. What does that look like with that locomotive? Andy Tetsu Uma
OK, Andy, Here is the final measurement report, and it's a doozie:The mdc boiler is 2.25 inches long and 7/16 inches in diameter. If used to model the PCRy's moguls, the diameter is correct for 1:96, the length is correct for about 1:100, so pretty darn close. however, the tender is 1.375 inches long, which works for the mogul's tender in 1:120 scale. Prototype narrow gauge trucks on freight cars were 4' from axle-to-axle spacing. At 0.4", they scale out to 1:120 scale. So if I model 1:120, everything is in proportion except the engine itself and the track gauge is too wide. If I model 1:96, then the tender and the trucks of freight cars are a bit too small and the gauge is a couple inches too small. Track gauge of 1:96 is 33", 1:120 is 42" (for N scale track). I am starting to think that the problem is in the locomotive. In 1:120, a narrow gauge 4-4-0 or 2-6-0 scales closer to the smaller bachmann 4-4-0 or atlas 2-6-0, both are not as smooth of runners as the mdc engines. I have an old athearn 2-8-0 engine mechanism that I think I can revitalize with the new tender & motor of the athearn 2-6-0 that I ordered. Would it be easier if I build a 1:120 scale narrow gauge consolidation? In 1:120, the 2-8-0 drivers scale to 36", and the dimensions are correct for several 2-8-0's of the turn of the century to the later years of steam. Maybe something like this with a modified boiler and several scratchbuilt elements???
I admire what you are trying to do and the creative approach you are taking with N scale mechanisms, but if real accuracy and less caricature is your goal then why not just give HOn3 a try? That's what I finally decided to do after my initial forays into 1:96 scale.
First off, HOn3 is WAY too expensive for me, (plus they cater too much to the D&RGW crowd. The C&S and DSP&P engines I showed above are only ideas for a 2-8-0. Mine will be a plausible representation of a trio of consolidations that the PC may have bought to replace its Thos. Paul & Son 2-6-0's and 4-4-0, which were mechanical headaches according to the books) and I've decided to make a 2-8-0 in 1:120 instead of a mogul in 1:96. It fits better proportionally, and I'd like to make something that would've been theoretically bought between 1893 and 1900. (In 1904, the actual pacific coast railway 2-8-0's were bought, but I don't like their as-built looks. Besides, I want something with a Radley-Hunter stack!) Below is a photo of a concept for a 2-8-0 that was bought by the Pacific Coast Railway and modified with signature details (hunter stack, peaked-roof wooden cab, headlight details, dome configuration, tender details, etc.). The chassis will be used, but it will receive a new boiler from the 2-6-0 I ordered (they're essentially the same boiler for both the mogul & connie). If I can, I'll use the shorter main rods from the mogul and attatch the main rod to the second driver set (like a C-16), not the third. The radley-hunter stack will be kept, and the peaked-roof cab has been narrowed for 1:120 scale. The headlight will get some new details, and I will relocate the flags from the headlight bracket to the sides of the smokebox, where thet appeared on the actual rebuilt PC moguls. In 1898-1899, when the PC engines were rebuilt, they were converted to oil, but at least one actually kept its large spark arrestor stack for a while (which could've been extra precautions against fires--or a lazy rebuild shop crew which thought "eh, throw the hunter stack back on. I don't feel like fabricating a shotgun stack today."). So I may have an excuse to run an old-time-looking connie with an oil bunker tender. Interesting...:tb-biggrin:
Let me get my mind around this. At 1:96, 7/16" scales up to 42". The boiler on your intended prototyple is only 42" in diameter? Yea, a locomotive that small is going to look undersized next to a 38' passenger car. Also, in 1:96, you've described multiple compromises. 9mm gauge track scales out to 34" (not 36") and the axle spacing on the trucks to name a couple. The problem is multiple compromises can come together to bite you. ("These things work out but now this doesn't work.") I don't know how important exact prototype fidelity is to you but if it is, and working in uncommon scales, at some point you are going to have to resort to scratchbuilding as you won't find something to kitbash. I'm not trying to dissuade you since you seem to be up to that challenge but it is something to keep in mind. When I first started reading MR thirty one years ago, I ran across an article on Bob Hayden's HOn30 Carabasset & Dead River. (Feb 1980) At that time HOn30 and HOn3 were pretty much build it yourself from kits or scratchbuild and to some extent they still are. There's more RTR today but as you've demonstrated, if you want something, you might have to make it yourself. I wouldn't let price be a determining factor - the availability of kits, manufactured trucks, and manufactured mechanisms make kitbashing and scratchbuilding a whole lot easier and manufactured track can help you get up in running in a hurry, even if you want to later lay your own track. Remember, if you want something done right . . . . As someone who seems to love the building and kitbashing aspects of the hobby, HOn3 can be done on the cheap if you are willing to put in the effort. Me, I can handle creative anachronisms or prototype infidelity. I'll probably throw a couple HOn3 C-19s at my Michigan copper hauler idea and be happy calling them "catalog locomotives" or "purchased used cheap." I'm interested in what you finally decide and how you go about creating it. Andy Tetsu Uma ("Iron Horse")
I certainly agree that the HOn3 RTR stuff coming from Blackstone is pricy and Rio Grande centric but they also seem to be amazing models that run (and sound!) beautifully. When I did HOn3, Roundhouse was still around and producing their 2-8-0 kits. With a lot of work they could be made to look and run pretty fair, and since they were kits you could detail them for whatever era you preferred. Sometimes you can still find them on eBay. If I could have one wish it would be for a big outfit like Athearn or Bachmann to produce some basic and reasonably priced HOn3 steamers and do for that scale what B'mann has done for On30.
I've talked to Athearn about releasing some of the Roundhouse HOn3 locomotives and they are not interested. The funny thing is, how many of those or the Shays were remotored with Athearn can motors? I wonder how much they want for the tooling?
OK, so I've had the night to sleep on this, and here's what I've decided to do: 1:120 scale, or TTn3. That being said, this "purchased used" idea seems plausible. I've also settled on an era:1893. I am suggesting that the Pacific Coast Railway needed more engines to handle the increased freight tonnage, but they did not have enough money to afford new engines at the time (it was the panic of 1893 elsewhere in the country), so they got one cheap off of the South Park line, #191. It was shipped by rail to San Francisco and then delivered to the wharf at Port San Luis by the PC Steamship Co. (the PCRy's parent). Once in San Luis Obispo, the tender was left intact, but the engine was modified for operatng conditions on the PC: The congdon stack was replaced with a Radley-Hunter stack, and the engine was converted to burning wood, for oak trees were more common than coal. The all-weather cab was also replaced by a slightly larger, peaked-roof cab that was more open and cooler in the summer. Other minor changes were made, and the new Pacific Coast #191 enterd service in July of that year. Here is the final paint scheme I've decided on (russian iron conserved):
Some of the later NG lines chose NG because they could get equipment so cheaply from the earlier lines that went belly up. As for 1:120 scale anything (people, buildings, rolling stock, etc.) you might want to check for models in places that run 3.5' gauge. Also, the are some online shops that carry it.
Did some more research and found out that some DSP&P engines had congdon stacks and could burn either wood or coal, so I'm gonna keep the congdon on my model. I'll also modify my cab for 191's original round roof, since peaked roofs weren't necessarily standard on the PCRy. I guess I love the original DSP&P engine too much!#191 will now have its full colorado looks but with Pacific Coast Lettering.
getting closer... Even though the mcd engine I ordered isn't here yet, I got a lot of work done today: I scratchbuilt a correct round-roof cab for #191 out of styrene, added details to the headlight to make it look more DSP&P, and scratchbuilt the congdon stack by using my dremel tool as a lathe to file a wooden dowel down to shape. Here's a sneak peak: (as I've said before, This is a "pre-production" shot. The new model will be much cleaner with much more details & sharper paint.)
TTn3.5 great stuff! This is a great set of threads you've been posting on TTn3 modelling. I stumbled across this scale and gauge combination quite a while ago and really enjoyed trying it out. I'm really excited to read what you're building. Tomorrow I'll dig out the D&RGW 3000 series box car I built and see if the gondola is still around too. I found the MDC/Roundhouse N scale arch bar truck scaled out very well for TTn3 modelling. A long time ago I came across this build project another modeller was working on. He was posting his progress over on the Freerails forum. I went back there and found this thread. Click here to check it out (some pictures of the layout he was starting). There was also a thread on his model of RGS no. 24 but I can't seem to find that right now. I'm going to bookmark this build and I'll be looking forward to seeing how you get along. Cheers /chris
