Is Kato becoming the Old Bachmann?

As an ardent PRR fan all I want to say is I'm glad to see there are others out there who are radical about the hue of paint. Pennsy guys became known as SPF's now we have SUPF's. What's next?

 

I remember tread like this over on Atlas forum, same issued different manufacturer.

 

The real issue here is: Does Kato cover... there Warranties or is there a Warranty? If you buy a locomotive and it doesn't operate and you didn't damage it, you should be able to return it (perhaps for a nominal fee) and be given a new one. This isn't happening. Period.

Issues over color, details and etc aren't necessarily subject to any warranty.

I was lucky, I bought a SP, Kato PA and it didn't run right out of the box. I sent an e-mail off to the seller and the store made good on it. The key here is to know who you are buying from, what the stores return policy is and be willing to pay a minimal fee.

Pre-order? I don't know guys. I don't do that as a matter of principal. I won't buy or reserve what I can't see, hold, fondle and drool over. Did I mention test track?

I got to get myself down to San Bernardino to see the Santa Fe, 4-8-4 Northern leave the San Bernardino Station. It should depart sometime around 3:00 p.m. today. I will be running with a pack of mountain men.

You all have fun.

 

Exactly right. On those rare occasions when I've received defective merchandise, in most cases I've been able to get it corrected directly with the retailer. When that fails, there's nothing that gets a merchant's attention faster than a disputed credit card charge. I've never liked the attitude of some of our shops that we need to take it up with the manufacturer under warranty. Sometimes that is the easiest/quickest approach (i.e. missing or damaged parts), but it should be our choice. I will hasten to add that I don't think dissatisfaction with a color shade qualifies as "defective."

 

Why should the shop be penalized because the manufacture screwed up? They are not responsible for how the product was made. The manufacture is the one that should own up to the mistake.

 

Ideally yes but then rich people should pay a higher percentage of taxes than poorer folks. There is also the reality of economics to consider... Ahaaaaaaa, the real world is tainted by money so the big rich folk pay less of a percentage of their income in taxes than poor little folks and big manufacturers push their screw ups down the distribution chain to the little shop guys too. Utopia does not exist.

 

So I ask...how is the retailer penalized ?

The customer returns the item to you...you refund the customer his money or give him a replacement. The manufacturer then refunds YOU the money for the items.

So I ask again...how is the retailer penalized ? :tb-wacky:

.

 

Ultimately, the manufacturer should be responsible, but in most retail scenarios the consumer should only need to deal with the entity that they gave their money to. If I buy a toaster at Walmart and it doesn't work, I take it back to the store. If I buy an electronic item from Amazon and it's DOA, I send it back to them. Manufacturer warranties are generally intended to assure the consumer that an item will continue to function as intended for a specified period of time. Most retailers understand that dealing with defective product is a cost of doing business.

 

If you notice, most merchandise now comes with a notation in the instructions or often a piece of seprate paper stating... "If you have problems, DO NOT RETURN TO THE RETAILER, contact us at 888-888-8888."

The manufacture generally would rather deal directly with the customer. This is how they track problems and can decide if there is a larger problem they need to address. When they get large batches of merchandise back from a retailer (Wally World etc.), in most cases, they have no idea what the actual problem was and most of it just goes in the trash as it is more work to test and sort out what is wrong than just to write it off. This doesn't help them determine if they should update or upgrade a product.

Working in a shop, we have already been told by several maufactures (mainly RC) to have the customers contact them directly when problems arise. Often they can respond faster by directly sending repair/replacement items to the customer, rather than waiting for parts to arrive at the shop, then have the customer come back in to pick them up. If we have the item on hand, and the manufacture agrees to replace it for us, often we will take one out of inventory. That then hangs us out without the product to sell, until replaced by the manufacture though. As mentioned above, there is no Utpoia.

Shops are working on such thin margins these days, the manufactures are doing what they can to take some of the burden off of the shop, owning up to their mistake.

In this day of limited production runs and thin inventories, often there may not be a replacement or exchange item on hand at the shop to take care of a customer. Unfortunately now, the same is coming true for manufactures as they are selling through inventory quickly and there is none left to salvage parts from.

 

KATO Quality

I am also not happy anymore with the new KATO Quality!

My three new SD70 ace won’t run right out of the box!
First I hat to solder the contact on the electric board.

I am a real KATO – Fan!
Till now it was the Rolls Royce of the N-Scale locos!

I hope KATO will produce the same Quality again.

I prefer to spend a few Dollars more an get a nice, smooth running Loco!

 

Yep, I've seen those from time to time. At least one of our N scale manufacturers (IMRC) seems to be aligned with that type of support. I've had a few occasions where an IMRC product was lacking in some way and a simple phone call or email typically had the situation resolved. That's a choice of the manufacturer. In Kato's case, some folks are reporting that they do not receive the same level of service. That was the basis for my suggestion that rather than deal with an uncooperative or unsupportive manufacturer, a dead unit should just be dealt with through the retailer.

I can only remember receiving one "bad" Kato unit. It was a GG1 that had a truck dislodged during shipping. Despite snapping it back in place, the thing just didn't run or sound right. Upon contacting my etailer back East, he gave me the option of either returning it to him or dealing with Kato. I sent it back to him priority mail and he had a new one in my hands in under a week. If I named the shop (which I won't) it would likely be met by a chorus of disbelief. :tb-biggrin:

 

At the present time, I have no qualms pre-ordering Kato diesels... because they still are mechanically beyond reproach. Of course... the ones I get are long standing mechanisms that have been proven to be reliable over years of use. I really can't speak to the quality of 'all' their newer diesel mechanisms... and if I were contemplating buying one after all of the comments I've read... I might be concerned enough not to pre-order.

Even the NW-2 mechanism... which was brand new and somewhat 'revolutionary' for its size, power & DCC capability... was not perfect but better than most similar sized models previously made. IIRC... its been over a year since Kato has released an NW-2. I don't know if it was because they didn't sell or if there were any mechanical issues being reported.... perhaps someone could fill me in on this? The only thing I have to complain about with NW-2... is that its a bit noisy... but the darn thing will pull 9-10 weighed 40' cars UP A 2% grade all by itself! One Atlas RS-3 or RS-4/5 can't do that... in fact... the Atlas GP-7and GP-9 are about comparable to what the Kato NW-2 can do. So as I await the 'new and improved' Walthers SW-9... my 'measuring stick' for small diesel switcher performance will be the Kato NW-2.

So while I've stated that Kato is not the 'undisputed gold standard'... that doesn't mean I am ditching my Kato engines. They are... as far as my collection goes... the best overall running models I have. Perhaps If I had only new models with less than acceptable performance... I would be singing a different tune. My concern with Kato is the development of new models and the stories I've read that claim they've lost a few steps in their dominance... or... the possibilty that other manufacturers have closed the gap mechanically and lead in quality of detailing, painting and customer service.

BTW... I've never had to deal with Kato customer service. Thus-far... if I needed parts... I've been able to acquire them on-line directly from Kato at a reasonable charge. I can only imagine that if I were treated less than cordially... I would be mad. I might even post more derisive threads about them... but it would be about 'bad' customer service rather than the models I own.

 

It is horribly ironic that the warranty restrictions started when the locos got more involved mechanically and more expensive. I always thought the reverse to be true. When the Atlas/Kato RS3's retailed for $49.95 when they came out, warranty repair parts replacement work was quick, efficient, reliable and free. Now it involves a wait, a fight, excuses, and cost. Go figure.

I am hoping that this is just a hitting slump. Back in 98 when Macguire and Sosa were chasing the home run title, we agonized during their hitting slumps. Now it seems it is happening in model railroading. Hopefully, their resolve will return.

But they created a lot of great trains from other manufacturers, by raising the bar and throwing down the gauntlet. They are not the only game in town now, there are others who can meet or beat them in all areas.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

 

I read all 6 pages of this tonight--at what point did you guys stop having fun and stop playing with your trains?

I can appreciate problems with a mechanism, but paint? If it bothers you that bad--alter it. Yellow, orange and red are the hardest colors to paint. I'm sure manufacturers try very hard to get things right--there is no one sitting in a office somewhere saying--one shade off--PERFECT, just to screw with people.

 

I've seen the rudolph-nose plow and the kodachrome "orange", but I'm with mark on this pic here. Besides, didn't paint vary from one unit to another because of variables in weathering/exposure/repaints/shopping/useage/etc/etc/etc anyway? This is NOT a reason to pull out the heavy, train-smashing object of choice.

And hey, at least most of you guys can find some engines/rolling stock premade by a manufacturer like KATO, even if the paint is a bit off. It took 40-odd years for N scale to have a wheel arrangement that I wanted! (4-6-0)

 

If anyone wants to get rid of a cola set and engines let me know. I have lots to offer for a trade, mostly 80's and newer wester stuff but I would love to talk.
Kevin

 

kermat,
I don't think this problem is intentional, it borders on negligence and lack of due diligence. And, we are part to blame, as all of us clamor for new stuff, get impatient, and often the makers rush to fill the demand, often using the wrong photos or prototypes then mistakes occur. Then kick in the engineers who want to show off their next step into high tech, and we all know that often that incurrs problems and glitches. When a manufacturer rests on his laurels, we accuse them of being complacent or stagnant, then when they try to develop something, again we react negatively. I haven't met a hobby shop owner or operator, or even a manufactuers representative that said our market is easy.

Next, I am old school. Although our society has been quite good to me over the years, I still have values which started as a kid, and one of those is that a hundred bucks is still a lot of money. I am by no means a cheap miser, as my friends and visitors see when they visit my place, but I am careful with my expenditures.

That is why my Kato GS4 is a display unit, even though it is now back to manufacturer's perfect condition, just because of the design issues I see recurrence, and there goes a loco which now has over $200 in it, and it has only one loop around my layout. It kills me to see something so expensive wrecked or out of commission, so it sits.

In the words of Mr; Myagi ("Karate Kid III"), they will get out of this batting slump because they have "good roots". Give them some time to recover from their national tragedy, see past their arrogance and resentment, and then gain some insight as to the real nature of the problem, and they will emerge better, way better.

For example, take a look at some of their steps from the past, from the relative junk of Sekisui to Kato then to KatoUSA, from the old ConCor PA's and F3's (yes, they were Kato powered) to what is in the boxes now, from the JNR steamers (which are still good IMO) to the absolute best regarded Mikado. They have done it and will do it, just because they can.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

/, MKato'r [s

 

Why is it so many think this is just about the COLA set? It isn't. That is just the tip of the iceberg.

SD45 Crappy paint
GS-4 - 6 DOA units that Kato will not honor the warranty on
SD40-2 Mid Production, brand new with broken trucks, no parts to repair at Kato, so again, no warranty honored
Hit and miss parts - why, if the traction driver is sold out for Mikados for such a long time, has it not been replenished?
Kato's take it or leave it attitude on several occasions

The list gets longer, but like I said, it is not solely about the COLA.

And for what it is worth, Lashedup's photo isn't as bad but the COLA set I had, the color difference was much more pronounced. There was a color difference of over 290 degrees as measured on my digital color studio, and that is a wide difference.

 

Tread like this pop up all the time and no manucfacturer is amune to them. most are without merrit like this one. I bet if you go down to a UP yard you will find that most of the locos's yellow paint there don't match each other.