Larry - Altmans sat in the n.e. corner where Meeting St. extension crossed Dorchester Rd. It was a white frame building with an add-on with a typical red tin roof. It may at one time been a grocery store. Harolds was the very first building on the right where Dorchester made that hard, right turn after crossing the RR tracks, cater-cornered across from the VFW. I know that from at least the early 60's it was Harolds, don't know what it might have been earlier. And, of course was not familiar with the donut shop, but as every Southern boy knows - There Is No Doughnut But KrispyKreme!
Ok, I now have my 1958 USCS map in front of me. Here is what I see. From the south, the ACL tracks break at a point just below Red Top (actually on West of the Ashley side). One branch continues to follow Hwy. 17 and as we all know, continues to Albemarle Point, some 2.5 miles down the line. The other continues on to and through Bennett Yard, where my map ends at Brentwood High School. From this point on Dorchester Rd., it is 1.4 miles to US 52, Rivers Ave. The SAL enters the picture actually on Johns Island proper, at the intersection of Stono Station and Johns Island Road, and then proceeds to Limehouse Station where it soons crosses the Stono River. From here it heads to the West Ashley neighborhood of Oakland and crosses the ACL at a spot close to St. Johns Church. From here it is a short distance to Dupont Crossing and then the Citadel. Back up to the ACL Bennett Yard and Dorchester Road. One can see that the area is still growing as only the neighborhoods of Wando-Woods, Brentwood (Promised Land Church) and Waylyn are developed. From Bennett Yard, there is a large wye leading down into what I assume is Stark Yard. A county prison farm is noted as being close by to the left. There is a creek shown and designated as Brickyard Creek with an island known as West Marsh, just off of Accabee Flats. The area on the far side of Bennett Yard, with a road known as Goodrich Rd. traversing it, is well represented by many strip mine operations. My map tour ends with a note that only the Southern rail yard is shown as the map moves to other quadrents at that point.
Falcon468 - Not certain what that USCS map shows, but the Croghans branch parallel to U.S. 17 was probably closer to 10 rather than 2.5 miles. And, don't know how detailed the map is, but I hope it illustrates one of the earlier points; that there was an awful lot of rail commerce on Johns Island. For example not only was there a passing siding at Stono station, but also (what I call) a mini-yard. During the packing season the tracks there could be full of FGEX reefers waiting to be loaded with tomatos or truck vegetables northbound. I well remember one night at about 10 p.m. watching 3 GP-7/9's coupled on to a string of reefers waiting for the last car to be fully loaded. When the last car was loaded, the GP's added the string of cars to the train waiting in the passing siding and moved swiftly northward. There are still some packing sheds at Stono, but they are just truck served and then again, there aren't too many growers left on Johns or Wadmalaw Islands. A friend of mine had a job (at age 13 - on) working for a farmer on Wadmalaw Island - driving a truck? He tells me that he remembers (for whatever reason) driving past the packing sheds at Johns Island/Main Road to take a load of produce to Limehouse's on Hwy. 17. He swears (and I seem to remember) that one did not need to have a drivers license to drive a "farm vehicle." I just can't imagine that happening today!
Dave, A review of the map, which is limited in its Johns Island coverage, shows that the SAL goes to a double track siding, for what looks to be just over a mile in length, just below Stono Station. As it heads up to Limehouse Station, it reverts back to single track. The 2.5 mile ACL reference had to do with that portion of the track from Dupont Crossing to Albemarle Point. I agree it seems to me greater than that distance as I used to ride my bike from that point to St. Andrews Shopping Center and back. Along the way on Hwy. 17 we would pass the Pitch and Putt par 3 gold course, the Magnolia Drive In (which is on the map), the Cavallero Restaurant, Bootles, a series of mom and pop motels, the new McDonalds and then St. Andrews Shopping Center. During high school, we played golf on spring afternoons at Coburg Dairy. The train crosing was right there before entering the neighborhood known as Byrnes Down. Hope that helps.
Each of the three railroads serving Charleston had icing platforms at some point in its operation. The ACL's was located at Bennett Yard as discussed; the SAL facility was located at the south end of Cooper Yard, and I believe the Southern platform was located at its downtown yard. Even the lowly ACL Yonges Island Branch sported an icing platform at Meggett SC in the 10's-20s which was later replaced by an ice house/platform located at Drainage (Hollywood) SC.
Falcon 468 - Well I finally got the right maps out. Dependent on where the trackage ended at Albemarle Point, the branch was either 9.5 or 9.75 miles long (2 different maps consulted). But, according to the measurements I made, what would have been m.p. 6 on the branch was just short of Wappoo station (Road). From that I would make the end of track at Albemarle just about 3.5 miles which is more in line with our subjective figures. Too bad I don't have the ACL profiles on this branch, that to me would provide the final word. But regardless, 'til the end it was a fascinating bit of branchline railroading. The SAL tt I have from 1963 shows an 89 car passing track at Stono plus under "Other Tracks" a capacity of 98 cars. I'm almost certain that Main Rd at that point crossed over 4 sets of tracks as there were packing sheds on both sides of the road. At Limehouse station is shown a 15 car siding, while Blitch spur which broke off to the right (south side of the rr) shows an additional capacity of 81 cars. PalmettoLTD - Guess all those ice houses and platforms were gone some time before my time. It makes sense that Southern would have had an icing platform at the Line St. yard and 'tho I remember the FGEX reefers, for some reason must have overlooked an icing platform. Do you have any info at all as to when they would have been abandoned?
24 FEBRUARY 2009 Dave. Yes - Altmans did locate in the building where the grocery store was located. Yes also on Harold's location. The VFW did take over the old 'Bunney's Lounge (next to the fire department. I checked with my wife on that DoNut shop. It was a Dixie Creme - her friend's parents owned the shop. FALCON468 That is the wye leading down into the Stark area. Originally, the wye did just lead into the three or four stub track hospital yard. Over the years after WW II, the rails were entended well in the Stark area. From what I understand, a switching crew will now spend most of their night shift working the Stark Area. That county prison farm should (or did) have a pond located on it. At one time, I have fished there. Buddy I think you and I talked some about the Meggett area tracks when you were working in the upstate. Between the SAL and ACL, there was a lot of trackage for that area. By the time we purchased the land on Edisto Island, SAL's tracks were already removed and the ACL track through Hollywood had trees growing between the rails. I need to find room on the SCRS for a long icing platform and ice house. I have twelve (12) MTH ACL refrigerated cars that need a place to be iced down on their way north. Atlas 'O' makes both. Perhaps when space is available, icing will take place again. Like Dave pointed out, we all need to make notes, take pictures even now - for tomorrow what we see now could be changed (maybe gone). Larry @ SCRS
Larry - Well, son-of-a-gun, got it right and that after (I guess) Altmans has been gone for ~30 years. Another good eatery (very good steaks) was located in the point where Spruill split off from Meeting St. ext., just about at Cooper yard, the "Tradewinds." Sort of had the same internal discussion that you've had. Fortunately the point where my mythical joint ACL/SOU terminal company crosses and interchanges with the SAL "EC" line, is about 40 miles north of Savannah. Since all 3 of the packing shed on my layout will be served by the SAL, I figure that they would be iced or cooled in Savannah. Plus, at this time I really don't have room left on the layout. I am having trouble tho' acquiring FGEX reefers. Over the years I've acquired about 15 from all the manufacturers I'm aware of that made them (Accurail, Athearn, Train-Miniature). But at present, only Accurail seems to be making 40 ft. FGEX reefers, and they seem to be scarce.
Larry, The ice house was located on the Ravenel-side of the Hwy 162 (former Hwy 17) crossing in what is now Hollywood SC. The building was constructed of brick and was approximately 30 feet by 30 feet. A lower platform provided access to side doors for blowing "snow" or crushed ice onto produce. The facility also had a conveyor for transporting chunk ice up to the bunkers. The ice house was located on a siding with a capacity of about three or four cars. Ice was not manufactured onsite and was reported trucked in from Charleston (possibly by rail as well?). The building was razed in the mid-90s by a local developer despite the efforts of a few of us to have the building preserved and is now occupied by vacant shop. The Meggett ice platform was located on the Meggett side of the ACL-SAL crossing. As far as I can tell, there was no ice house associated with the platform. I can only guess that ice was brought in by rail. Interestingly the Yonges Island wharf and several of the larger produce sheds were also equipped with ice storage facilities - the ice being used to cool produce until the reefer could be properly iced at a larger facility. Hope this helps. Buddy
Buddy - Thanks for the info on the crushed ice. Had often wondered whether a pre-iced reefer was able to handle the "field heat" of a lot of that produce. Spraying crushed ice on the load would definitely be a help. On a related note: does anyone know of an HO scale kit for a packing shed that resembles the local variety? For years I've been perusing the ads for structure kits and really can't find any that are even close. Just about resigned to scratch-building what I need.
Dave, I am not aware of anything commercially available that matches any of the ACL or SAL sheds located in the Low Country so I'm afraid scratchbuilding is your only option. Do you have a particular ACL or SAL shed in mind? Based on what I've been able to find, the sheds on ACL lines were a mix of railroad and privately owned structures that consisted of covered sheds, covered platforms, partially enclosed platforms, etc. The "standard" size shed seems to measure 30' X 60', four posts per side, board and batten siding with a small office in the corner of the shed. The office has two windows on the exterior walls and a door opening to the platform - basically large enough for a narrow desk and a chair. The larger sheds measured approximately 40' X 150+' (need check my notes to confirm) - some were partially enclosed. All had ramps at each end. I believe all of the ACL sheds are now gone. The SAL sheds basically had the same layout as the ACL sheds although the designs appeared to be more uniform than the (few) Coast Line sheds I've seen. Ramps at each end, small office in the corner, novelty siding, etc. Fortunately, a few SAL sheds remain - the shed at Wappoo/Hwy 17, the sheds on Johns Island, and the shed at Barrelville come to mind. Buddy Hill
Buddy - Thanks for the information. I was pretty much resigned to a bout of scratch-building. I was contemplating a packing shed like the one at DuPont, tho smaller. Thankfully there's a lot of styrene shapes/sizes, etc. Thankfully, the other two loading areas are "aisle-side" industries. In any case, the shed will be painted brown 'n buff.
12 March 2009 Destination: Charleston Union Station (CUS) – part six (6). Magnolia tower and Rail Junction to Charleston Union Station. The link posted here will have pictures of the CUS, the Town Creek Tower and the Street Car Trolley Barn. The tower is on the Cooper River side of the City. In the background you will see the Cooper River Bridge. The CUS was just beyond the bridge. Click on ‘Charleston’ and scroll as desired. http://tsalmon.topcities.com/ Some where I read that the definition of ‘Hindsight’ is Retroactive Intelligence. Perhaps this is the best way tell about this part of the rail route into the CUS. Knowing today about the then passenger train rail traffic that took place during the years the Charleston Union Station and Grove Street Station were in operation would make this ‘the place to be’ for watching Atlantic Coast Line, Seaboard Air Line and Southern passenger trains. Beginning at Meeting Street crossing, just east of the Magnolia Junction and Tower to just past Town Creek Tower and crossing, a rail fan should have been in train heaven. Town Creek Tower would compare with SY Tower as a great rail fan place to be. From the SY Tower, all Southern Railway and Atlantic Coast line Freight and Passenger trains could be seen. From the Town Creek Tower, all the Seaboard Air Line freight and passenger trains, all the Southern Railway and the Atlantic Coast Line passenger trains utilizating the CUS and most ACL freights (in and out of Cooper Yard) could be seen. In the picture of the Town Creek Tower, the single track is the SAL’s crossing the double ACL tracks. To the right, the SAL tracks proceeded across the city to the Ashley River side of the city. As it made its way to the Ashley River Bridge, it passed by the Trolley Barn (picture), across the Southern tracks, across King Street and across Rutledge Street. After Rutledge was the Grove Street Station (parallel to the track), then Hampton Park and the Citadel before crossing the river. Just across the Town Creek Crossing, the SAL had a wye leading to the East Bay Street track that served the docks and their warehouse (picture / grocery store). When I was a member of the Charleston Chapter of the N.R.H.S., one of the ‘senior’ members told me that Southern – at times also used their Line Street station for SOME passenger service in addition to the CUS. Those could have been ‘specials’. During the WW II time frame, I was only able to see the trains at Meeting Street crossing and in the CUS area as I was always in my parent’s auto. My dad and mom used Meeting Street or King Streets in and out of Charleston to do most of their shopping needs for our family. In those days, there were no Malls, Shopping centers in the North Area, East of the Cooper, West of the Ashley and almost all shopping had to take place in the City of Charleston Other times returning from the Battery and White Point Gardens, Dad would use East Bay to Columbus Street, then over to Meeting Street. At other times, we would past the CUS and go to the street just past the Cooper River Bridge before going over to Meeting Street. Dad and Mom took pictures of us kids at the Battery, but some reason that CUS was not important enough to use the Kodak camera 16mm film on. Just think. Had they took some pictures… . When we pasted the station, we could easily see the steam engines, baggage and passenger cars that were not under the train shed. At times when we crossed over the Cooper River Bridge, I tried to look down at the railroads. The view on the Charleston end, for looking down was blocked by the concrete side walls until the steel portion begin or ended as to which direction you were traveling. However, even for the short time frame, I remember seeing the wye, the county jail and the coal trestle, the Cooper rail yard, the Union Station and of course the ships. Note: This was the original, two lanes, single spans, Grace Memorial Bridge that opened in 1929. Also during WW II, the military had guards at the top of each span. Small guard shacks were built there for the guards. There was on time I did go into the CUS. My dad went there to pick up a crate that came in by train. He took my brother me in with him. This was on one of those hot days and I was very happy that we did not have to stay in the car - as we had to do on many occasions. While dad was checking on the crate, my brother and I checked out the station. The waiting room was huge (too me) with many, many benches. We heard someone announce that a train was arriving on track (number now unknown) and we went out on the concourse and up to the gate to see the train arrive. The train pulled into the station and stopped just sort of the track bumper. Shortly there after, a lot of people got off the train, walked in on the platform, through the gate and into the waiting room. Since our dad had not yet come looking for us, my brother (being older) said “let’s go look as the engine”. This we did as well as most of the train. From what I know now about the stations track layout, that was a Southern Railway train. Atlantic Coast Line had the tracks next to East Bay Street and this was well away from the Street. Note: I found some pictures of some ACL steam locomotives on the East Bay side of the platforms. The Cooper River Bridge can be seen in the pictures. I will try and find that web site and put the link here. After checking out the train, my brother and I returned to where my dad was checking on the crate. He was still there. As we arrived there, the man behind the county told dad they a found the crate and it was at the ACL freight warehouse. We would need to go there to pick it up. We left the CUS and went to the East Bat Street side of the ACL freight warehouse and received the crate. That was my only visit into the CUS. After the war was over, we moved to Thomaston, Georgia. The CUS burned in January of 1947, before the family returned to Charleston in June 1950. Before school started for the year 1950 / 1951, my brother and I wanted to do some fishing, on one Sunday afternoon at the Battery (White Pint Gardens). With our parent’s permission, we took the bus (SCE&G Company) from Waylyn (fare 30 cents) into the city to the Market Street terminal. From there we did walk to the Battery and did do some fishing. However, the fish took the afternoon off, we lost some hooks and we decided to do some touring of the East Bay Street area. Railroads became our prime interest. In the early 1950’s, most of the railroad tracks were still in place as they were for many years serving the various business, warehouses and docks. There were stub siding that ended at Meeting Street. Other tracks ziged zaged around through the Market place. Some of these tracks had very tight radii curves. Note: I was told by a man who worked at the Charleston Water Works, when these tight radii spurs were to have a car moved over them, a morning track crew would come and brush heavy oil onto the rails so the cars and engine could move over them without derailing. There was the Seaboard Air line track on the river side of East Bay Street that passed by the two ACL warehouses, the CUS shed and connected to SAL wye. Note: I have a photo of a SAL locomotive on this track. There was the Southern track from the Line Street area which crossed the SAL track, an ACL track that crossed the SAL track and East Bay Street into a small, short yard (most of the tracks were covered with mud). The tracks in and around the docks were almost a maze. There had to be a lot of trackage rights for each railroad. At Columbus Street, we saw what was left of the Union Station. The main building was gone as if it had been taken down (not burned). The curved vehicle driveway for picking and dropping off people was still in place. The side walk were there, however did have weeds growing through the cracks. The waiting room floor and the tile covering were still in place. Even the gates to the platforms were still there. The train shed, the platforms and all the tracks were still in place. On one of the tracks near East Bay Street was an ACL coach. Note: This coach had been made into an office car. A girl, who I later met at Chicora High School, said her mother worked for ACL and had her office in that car. It had been a very good Sunday afternoon for sight seeing. Very few people were down by the docks, warehouses and none at the CUS site. WE walked over to Meeting Street and caught the next bus home. Sometime over the next year, my family was returning back from the Isle of Palms. As we were coming down off the last span, I saw a passenger train being turned on the wye. The train had been cut into and both parts could be seen. The brakeman was on the rear car, which was very near the end of the trestle. This had to be an ‘official, special or excursion’ train. Some time before my first tour of duty at Charleston AFB, the track and shed had been removed. The platforms were still in place with weeds between them. During that same year, I went to the News and Courier newspaper and asked to see any old newspaper articles, pictures they may have had about the Union Station. They let me look at some microfiche of where they would be - if they had any. I did find some articles about the ACL and Southern not wanting to rebuild the station and the City of Charleston wanting them to rebuild it. One of the reasons ACL and Southern gave was “the trains had to be cut into two sections to use the wye and the outer track could not be extended any farther over the channel’. ACL said they could use their North Station to serve Charleston. Southern said they could use their Line Street Station. Another – later article stated that the station would be rebuilt. One last bit of information about the CUS. During WW II , the railroads did what they had to do to handle the military passenger traffic. On one of those returning trips from the Battery and White Point Gardens, there was a passenger train on the Seaboard Air Line track – next to the Union Station. Military personnel were getting off the train and going into the CUS. It may have been that SAL did this quite often. However, for me it is a good memory. I have often thought about that ‘off loading’ of troops there at the station. It is possible that these men were being stationed on Sullivan’s Island (a fortified Island in WW II) and this was the closest point for pick up transportation. It could be they were transferring to a Southern Railway train for movement westbound in South Carolina. One man’s good memories. It was good to share them. Larry L. Childers
Larry - Thanks for the info on CUS. This was quite a bit before my time (me being 4 or 5 when CUS burned). Even from my later memories, the east side of Charleston was, even in the '60's and '70's, a maze of trackage. As a comment on troop trains on the SAL, back in the '60's one of my favorite haunts was Willy Herman's "Keg" at 318 King St. I was in there one night with a buddy and we got to talking to a gentlemen named Hank Greenberg (Greenburg?) from Alabama. Yep, the same name as the baseball great from the '30's - but he wasn't. In any case during the conversation he said that the last time he had been in Charleston was in 1943 on a troop train. He asked us about a bar called the "Boll Weevil" and if it was still there across from the railroad station. I was stumped for a few seconds and I told him that that was the name of Seaboard's local passenger train, and then it dawned on me, he was talking about the "Ark Lounge" which was in fact located across from Grove St. station. They in fact unloaded the troops there on Grove St. and then marched to CUS through the streets for whatever reason. He said this was unusual to him because the previous year the SAL troop train had pulled directly into CUS. So, apparently troops were handled in two different ways on the Seaboard to CUS. Yes, he did ask and we did take him to the "Ark" and a good time was had by all three of us except we were three exceptions to a bar full of Citadel cadets.
Slight deviation from the primary topic... Larry in the link you posted, I took a look at the Columbia photos. I actually worked in some of those buildings on Gervais Street when the were owned by The Ben Arnold Company back in the late 1980s to early 1990s. I think I can clarify some fuzzy dates that are listed on there--any idea who/how I can contact? Jamie
13 March 2009 Good morning Jamie. Try this e-mail address for Salmons. It is listed in the 'Contact me' part of the site. thomassalmons@yahoo.com Larry @ SCRS
13 March 2008 Good morning Dave. It is good to have someone else - to have been there to 'see those SAL troop trains' at the CUS. Greenburg's being on the train is even better. Larry @ SCRS
17 March 2009 Buddy. Do you know if there was a tower located at the Southern / Seaboard crossing (near King Street)?
