Hi Pete, In O scale it makes sense to cut your own but as one moves down the sizes it becomes less efficient. I can't imagine ever cutting N scale ties! The easy way to do it in the larger scales is to rough saw the blanks then run them thru a planer set at ties thickness, then rip the planed blanks into tie width with a bandsaw (to reduce waste) then cut them to tie length with some kind of stop or sliding table on a bandsaw or jigsaw. I doubt that my planer could plane to N tie height without shattering the boards? For N scale my big question is given the cost of jigs and precut tie strips why bother? The materials and jig costs for fastrak built switches seem to approach the cost of commercial switches with little compensation for the required labor. Why go to that much trouble to get a switch without detailing? Are the Atlas switches too bad to use? ( note, I'm only interested in the performance of the #10 code 55's with metal wheels in all cars)...dave
Hi Dave! Inefficient hardly describes the process! My cabinet-making specialty in the 1970s was tambour doors--thin strips of wood glued to a flexible backing that goes around corners. Many Scandanavian sideboards and cupboards featured them, and they weren't too hard to make once I figured out how to cut them without having to plane them to thickness. I cut 3/4" x 1/8" inch strips (by about 30 inches long) on a 10" radial arm saw. Getting down to 1.5mm on a 4-inch table saw wasn't that big a step. So my ties were 9" x 9" in scale. I was nuts then--and many here will say that I'm still nuts. But I had black walnut ties for my handlaid switches. And for posts on my piers. Black walnut cuts like butter, and smells terrific to boot. Back in the mid 70s, I had to rely on my LHS, which carried nothing, and magazine ads in Model Railroader and Railroad Model Craftsman. Scratchbuilding supplies were available, but sometimes it took longer to track stuff down, order it, and wait for a shipment than it did to make your own. I could cut a 3/4 x 4-inch wide board into three 1/16-inch slices with a jig. I sacrificed a push stick with every slice, but I had plenty of scrap for push sticks. And I often used thick veneers, which I bought from Brooklyn NYC (Fitzgerald's?). I was also friends with a cabinet maker up in N. Grafton, MA, who often ordered for me. Again, inefficient or foolhardy might best describe this endeavor! But so is applying 1/16 x 1/16 inch lippings to the 1/16 inch thick plywood that made up the cubbyholes of a Colonial-replica secretary's desk.
Based on the price of unweathered rail at 4nscale.com, figure just over a buck for the rail, $6.50 (includes shipping roughly) per tie strip, about $.80 for pc ties. A few pennies for solder, flux and pliobond. The amortize the cost of jigs over the number of turnouts you plan to build. Did I figure that all right?
Pretty much right, I think. If you use individual ties the total material cost is probably in the less than $3 range. I need to make a jig for the ties, I think that would save a huge amount of time. I'm not quite into cutting the ties from stock, though!
I think you've hit the point exactly. As I was working on my layout design, I chose #8 switches for the yard. As the yard design progressed it became apparent that I was going to need at least 16 of them, and would no doubt need more elsewhere. The next thing was that I really liked the #11 for a mainline switch because it has considerably more "lead" than a #12. With the largest commercial switch being a #8 at the time, I was going to have to scratch build the #11 for sure. FT doesn't have a jig for it. The first I heard of scratch building a turnout, I thought I was involved with a bunch of lunatics who didn't have anything else to do but bring about more stress and pain upon themselves. Then I saw some, then I watched one being made, and my attitude began to rapidly change about it. And when installed, man did they look good. Then I went about making a few myself and I was totally hooked on this. So then I put the math to it to see if the pricy jig would pay for itself and the answer was absolutely it would. (that's not to say it will be for everyone). Even though I could build a switch from scratch from just a template, or even without one, I felt that being able to duplicate EXACTLY the same dimensions would be critical to maintaining a specific track center in the yard. So I purchased the template for a #8 switch. At first I had a few issues with the guard rail clearances, but found I could very easily work around it, now it doesn't seem to ever be an issue. Same template. The variable was me. So I guess I just got better at it. Not only do you begin to make them faster with practice, but you also make better and better switches even though you're using the jig. At this point, I'm considering replacing or at least tweaking a few "jig made" switches that I thought were so good at the time they were finished. It's a terrible punishment, but watching the FT online video of building a switch using the FT jig taught me how to make a much better switch. A few little tricks of the trade are picked up there that help one build a very good switch, and will be excellent tips especially when you go to truly scratch build such as I do with the #11's. When building a switch for use in a DCC layout, the FT jig, I think, needs one more PC tie on the frog end of the switch. Otherwise, when you make the cut to electrically isolate the frog, the two inside rails are left dangling, connected only at the tip to the last PC tie. The rails then act as a pry-bar or lever and can cause some re-do you don't need. Adding another tie a half inch or more away helps secure the rails better, especially if you cut the gap with a motor tool that creates enough heat that in the process it melts the solder. Guess how I know! In the end Ken, learning to build switches using the jig gives you the confidence that you can build any switch to be located anywhere of any size you want and it virtually eliminates the switch as a limiting factor on layout design. If you need many switches at all, it will also save you a lot of money.
I bought a #8 "kit" finally and have made my first few turnouts. I searched for old threads and found this one, which I found very interesting. Now that I have built a few, I have some observations. The genius here is not the jig by itself. That would speed things up, but is not by itself completely compelling. The real genius is the combination of the jig, the PointForm tool, and the QuickSticks ties. Could you file rail to make frogs and points without a PointForm? I'm sure you could. I suspect if I had to do it for more than 15 minutes I would kill myself. Getting the precise long files on points without a tool like the PointForm would be extremely difficult. QuickSticks take a lot of time out of laying and gluing individual ties. Precisely positioned ties very quickly and easily. Absolutely a time verses money argument, but to make QuickSticks work require that PC Board ties be at predictable locations. So if you're making turnouts in bulk (obviously for one or two none of this makes sense) the assembly line of PointForm, jig, and QuickSticks shave hours off the time required to get finished track. It is also worth noting this method allows me to work in my living room while watching evening TV with the family, rather than sequestered away in the train room. One of the most exciting things to me is the "oddball" trackwork that can be made in high volume quickly and easily. I can only imagine trying to hand lay things like dual gauge turnouts where you have to make more frogs and get everything aligned by hand. Can it be done with just some gauges, sure. I have to believe the jigs and tools speed it up a lot. Slip switches in multiple sizes, curved switches, if you need them they can be turned out in quatity, by you or..... Also exciting is the cottage industry of people using these tools to make and sell complete switches. I know of at least three people doing this, allowing those who want one or two switches to simply buy them, with a much larger selection than any other vendor. One I see has N scale #4, #6, #8, #10 and #12 left and right hand on e-bay right now, ready for immediate shipment. Want a slip switch but don't want to spend the money, or raise your skills to that level? Buy one. I thought these were a game-changer before I owned these, and now I am more convinced. If you have a door layout and need a dozen switches in six different sizes buying jigs and building them yourself is a tough prospect. But you can buy them from the people building switches. If you need 20, 30, or more of the same size over a reasonable period of time it may make sense. I think there is a lot of room here for clubs to create a "library" of templates and let people check them out for a few weeks at a time. I also wonder if there is a market for a "NetFlix" type service. However, the key is I think these do open up hand laying to more people, and will enable more people to make layouts the way they want. Using switches sized to what the layout demands, and not to what is available on a shelf somewhere. I also think the looks will raise the bar, an Atlas standard line switch (code 80) looks like a toy next to one of these switches. All of that is good for N scale.
I don't know if this has been mentioned in this thread, Fast Tracks with cut the fixture to work with Atlas Code 55. You have to tell them when you order the jig.
This is great news to hear about FastTracks. They were at NMRA National Train Show, by the way, some photos that shows what these tools can help accomplish : I've never built any of these, but what beautiful works of art. Thx for sharing the experiences, all.
I'll jump in here. Having built turnouts in place and using the fastracks jig, I can talk about this from both sides of the fence. The FT jigs are MUCH easier than handlaying. Although Dave has a lot of experience in larger scales, the difficulty in getting the gauging correct jumps quite a bit when going from HO to N. FT turnouts are MUCH smoother than either ME or Atlas turnouts. How smooth they are compared to a handlaid turnout depends on how much time you wish to spend with the hand laid turnout. Are they worth the money? Depends on the volume of turnouts you need. If you are building a small layout with several turnouts, then the jig is expensive. However, If you are building a large layout with many turnouts and you standardize on one or two sizes, they pay for themselves rather quickly. (especially if you have a couple of yards with a large number of staging tracks/turnouts) Now as for being locked in to a specific turnout, not necessarily. You can use the jig to build your points and frog, then pull it out and bend the rails for a curved turnout. You have to lay the rest by hand, but it does give you an option this way. As for the price, I have a brother who does CAD/CAM and machining. I asked him what he thought about the pricing and he felt it was very reasonable. In fact, he told me he could do what they do (if it wasn't for the patents), but they'd be priced about the same. Now, with that being said, even if you hand lay your turnouts, the point forming jig would be a wonderful tool to add to the others you use.
I must say I have hand built track for years in OO and EM gauges and the biggest advance we've had in years has been a vee and blade jig, here with the fast tracks you get both those and a accurate gauged assembly fixture plus the components to make 5 turnouts. If you only make the 5 turnouts that come with the initial kit that works out at $40 per turnout a bit high but you get top notch track, obviously the unit cost will come down if you buy more components to make more turnouts. The vee and blade jig I bought for EM cost me a total of $90 so add what else you get with the fast tracks kit it works out very cost effective in my opinion. The other option is to use Atlas 55 track which has to be the worst looking track ever those horrible plastic parts on the vee. As for me I am using Peco on the staging yards and and fast tracks everywhere else. I thing Tim has found an excellent gap in the market I have been waiting 12 months or more to see if ME #6 turnouts become available and they are still not around so fast tracks is the way to go for me. Am I also correct in thinking that if say I bought a #8 straight kit if I wanted to build a curved#8 all I would need is the assembly fixture (plus track components) as I would have the #8 vee and blade tools? Shaun
Hi guys This has been a VERY interesting thread and I must say it has been very enlightening for me. I have just moved down from HO to N scale and am intending to build a layout modelling the prototype of the First District of the Los Angeles Division of the Santa Fe's line over Cajon Pass down to San Bernardino as it looked in 1949. This is not a new thing for me as it was exactly the same thing that I modelled in HO in a 30 x15 foot room. Of course now that room will in theory expand for me because of switching scales and I should be able to fit a lot more in. To complete the Summit area that I wish to model will take 26 turnouts of LH and RH configurations, I know this because this is how many the HO layout had. When I built it I had to use the Shinohara/Walthers turnouts in Code 83 as they were the best that I could get here in Aussie. I was not into handlaying or handbuilding at that time. Now those things cost me $40 - $48 each depending on size, I used mostly No8 but some No10. As for the rest of the layout down to SB I will need another 28 and in SB itself over 50. For me the FT system is going to be a lifesaver. It will work out extremely cost effectively for me, not to mention the fact that I will be using Code 40 track. I think that in my case this is the only way to go, I haven't handlaid track before and the jigs I think will pay for themselves, not only economically but also the experience and the ease of construction. Let alone trying to source that many ME turnouts in Aussie which is almost impossible, it's hard enough to get the track. Who knows I may also be able to sell the fixtures when I'm finished with them or make some turnouts for others along the way. In any case the economic arguement comes down to what the individual is prepared to pay for and what they consider is the best for them. For me it is a no brainer. To those guys who have displayed all of their work in the thread, well done guys! There is some excellent work going on out there, jig or no jigs.
of course this is nothing compared to the trackwork in the model of the Bronx Terminal CNJ Bronx Terminal HO Scale ... and N scale version as well ... for those who haven't seen it N Scale version here: CNJ Bronx Terminal
I have built turnouts in HO but not in N. I was going to try the Fast tracks jig but the price was a stopper. I could not justify the cost for the amount of turnouts I would do especially since Atlas came out with the #10 in C55. That being said I will also add that I have found that building turnouts in HO was a learning curve and the more I did the easier it became. I actually became quite good at it but my first ones were nothing like the last ones. I built mine [in HO] using wood and masonite jigs and three point track gauges. I even designed some using a piece of flex track and tracing the rails onto paper. I had the opportunity to visit a fellow, who has passed on now, that built from scratch a Grand Union. For those who don't know what that is, it is an intersection of two double track trolley lines where a trolley approaching the intersection from any direction could take any of of the routes. A total of 16 turnouts in the space of about one square foot and all hand built. So I would caution any modeler that before you pay good money for a jig like Fasttracks that you realize that the jig won't make the turnout for you. It will aid you but skill is still required and that skill is acquired by practice. It is a learning curve to be sure. The question is that once you climbed that learning curve is that expensive jig really necessary? I don't know the answer to that. That is a question each must answer on his own.
I prefer to do my handlaying the "old fashioned" way, using wood ties and micro spikes. Only PC board is the throwbar. Like Inkaneer said, it's a learning curve, but after about 5 of them, it became quite easy. And fun too, thou it's time consuming. After trying to build a turnout using PC boards, I found that it wasn't for me. Besides, a plus for me is the ties and spikes are alot cheaper, even cheaper than ready made turnouts. One thing that I did buy from Fast Tracks was their Frog and Point former jig. That helped immensely! But I can't see buying one of their full templates when the "old fashioned" way works just as good. #11.5 turnout A/D & engine service -Mike
Nice looking track work in that terminal Mike! Great advert for hand-laying turnouts, however the technique.
Here's something people worried about the economics are not considering. You can always do what I did. Buy a FT jig, build your turnouts and turn around and sell it on ebay. I got $105 for the whole kit on ebay and when I bought it, the setup cost me $150. So if you build a dozen turnouts and then you sell it for around $100, your cost per turnout goes way down. :tb-wink:
