Walthers Baggage Car Prototype

The DRGW and C&O sleepers are sometimes called 10-6 but were actually 5 roomettes 6 bedrooms and 5 roomettes. Thus the Walthers 10-6 PS plan 4140 is totally wrong, fluting or not. DRGW rebuilt the 5 roomettes on the vestibule end into open sections. The general toilet became the womens room and the Porter's room became the mens room. The only exterior alteration was an addtional T shaped bathroom vent on the roof near the vestibule. As far as other RR's go, CNW, GN and CRIP never had any 10-6's and the only 10-6's owned by UP were Budd built. ATSF only had Budd and ACF 10-6's and the ACF version has one less hallway window then the PS version and the Porter's window is full sized. The NYC 10-6 has the roomettes on the vestibule end and the 6 bedrooms on the other end which is exactly opposite the PS 4140 car layout. NP, SP and PRR are correct. What is worse to me is that they could have done this car for ACL, FEC, L&N, N&W, RF&P, SAL and Sou. and been correct. Why paint mythological roads and not the real ones? And even if the number of modelers who do the roads Walthers didn't do, were insignificant (which I doubt), ACL, FEC and Sou 10-6's were common run thru cars on the PRR. So PRR modelers could use them. The omission of the Sou is even more puzzling to me, considering Lifelike has made E8 and DL109 locos for the Sou but the only cars available are the Kato Budd cars done 12/2000. Go figure.

 

The Unknown Baggage Car

Just a few things I wanted to point out about the pictures submitted so far.

The two pictures submitted appear to be taken in a desert setting. The one with regard to the Chief, west bound at Ibis, CA just out of Needles, CA. is a desert photo. Taken in 1966 (well past world war II) and on the head end of the Chief. I've been at this location and there isn't much green, to be reflected. If one car reflected green so would the rest of them and that doesn't happen with the rest of the train. To properly reflect the locale, the cars would reflect tan, mauve, white, some rust colors and mainly sandstone. The baggage car would appear to be lighter in color not the hint of green that shows up. In the second picture provided there is more then one baggage car. Note the second one, just ahead of a box car is in the same paint scheme...if it was to reflect any color it would be the blue of the freight locomotives passing by. It still appears to have a black with roof with green sides.

From my memory banks with regard to the Santa Fe trains that past through Barstow, CA. Most of the baggage cars in the black roof and green sides operated on Santa Fe's fast mail or other mail train combo's. Santa Fe continued to operate the heavyweight mail cars in the pullman green mixed with the lightweights...until the mail trains demise. Perhaps the reason for the black roof and green sides.

Edited add on: I do remember something my dad said about REA leasing Santa Fe light weight baggage cars and they were painted for REA. Something about the glare off the silver sided cars blinding the workers. These cars were later returned back to the Santa Fe, as is. Which might explain the Ibis 1966 recorded sighting.

I've already shared my dad's take on this particular car regarding the Ibis picture. He did say he worked many of these cars on behalf of the REA who used them almost exclusively. Now, in the past I've tested his stories and memories and found him to be quite accurate.

Remember, it's ok with me if we agree to disagree. I've checked my Santa Fe books, most produced by railfans and didn't find mention of these cars other then in the gray paint scheme. This isn't the first time I've found a piece of equipment whose description was absent or excluded from the record. We would need to research Santa Fe's files...if they still exist.

I remember them sitting out on the west end of the Barstow yard waiting for the REA crews to load the local express freight. May I suggest that the head end equipment on the mail trains was less then glamorous and subsequently ignored by most railfan historians.

It appears Walthers, has this one right based upon this participants memories of the real thing. Although the color sample provided is perhaps a little to green.

>

 

Check out this page and see how the Santa Fe cars have changed color: http://www.nscalesupply.com/Wal/WAL-Passenger.html


Ben

 

Hi Ben,

Now what's up with that? Oh well stuff happens!

I will be painting a few of these smooth sided baggage cars in the paint scheme we have been debating. To operate on my Santa Fe mail train.

I received my Walthers 2007-08 Buyers Guide in the mail and checked out pg.39, and the green, although perhaps to dark, appears on that page in connection with the fluted or corrugated siding. The baggage car pictured, isn't prototypically correct car for Santa Fe. As already mentioned the windows in the baggage door are three and Santa Fe's was a two windowed door. Santa Fe cut back the fluted side, about a foot and a half to two feet back from the doors. Check out pg. 56 of Walthers September issue, right hand corner, there is a picture of the Kato baggage car which is correct for Santa Fe.

A word about the green color currently being debated... it resembles the green used on the sides of Santa Fe's early express reefers/wilk cars and or box cars...lighter then pullman green. With regard to the baggage car in question it almost had a transparent quality to it.

If memory serves me correctly my dad complained vehemently about the silver sided baggage cars as they were hard to work due to the light reflecting and glaring in direct sunlight. Seems to me he mentioned that Santa Fe did something to dull the sides. The green color we've been discussing is most likely the REA thing. The dull look we can see in on the ATSF baggage cars in museums, maybe the result. That would moderately tame down the glare.

Have fun!

 

That's the thing to do. The baggage cars will be offered in undec which sometimes means unpainted, sometimes not.

I'll be buying the silver if any at all. What I would rather have is heavyweight baggage cars. Lots of them in various lengths. Painted in Santa Fe green, not Pullman green.

Ben

 

Russ is right, the Santa Fe "green" cars were Gray.
The AT&SF and the CB&Q both painted the roofs of some of their stainless steel equipment black during the war. I believe only the Q cars used in the Exposition Flyer were so treated..... I don't know the extent of the Santa Fe's application. The idea was to reduce the attention that a bright silver roof would attract.... for trains operating near the coast. For the same reason special visors were placed on the headlights of locomotives operating near the coasts to reduce the light spilling on the front of the train at night.
Charlie Vlk

 

I pulled out, my granddad's old issues of "The Santa Fe Magazine", under "High Iron" I found an article that might give us some insight. The article was in response to a previous one...of which I don't have a copy. Santa Fe was expermenting with a type of paint to reduce the glare from silver train cars. Apparently crews had complained about the blinding glare (much like you might experience walking along the side of a white building in the noon day sun). A type of green paint was being applied. No mention of the specific cars, type or style. Just that the experiment was working well and was cutting the glare.

I wish I had more. I expect you to arrive at your own conclusion but this might be the answer to the green we see in the two photographs of the baggage cars. This also fits into what my dad was telling me.

As you know... I'm not one to buy into the fact that we have all the documentation out there. I do know from having had Santa Fe rails in the family that various experiments were tried and went virtually unnoticed by us railfan types. Unless you are in the know or had family working for the railroad, involved in a project, it's not likely it would be documented. Something to think about...right?

 

My turn to resurrect a thread. Oh that nasty guy...me.

Disclaimer: This is no balderdash, joke or derivative there of. Just the straight scoop.

I reread this thread through, a number of times and it appeared, I was arguing with a good friend.

Ben, Russel and Charlie, is correct. What, what, what did he say? Did he just admit too... Santa Fe never did own any factory delivered or company approved greenish sided streamline or light weight baggage cars. That is... None, that would show up on any roster.

Until...

Here's the story.

My dad said of a black roofed, green sided baggage car with Santa Fe lettering. (I provided a blurred picture, in a past posting.) This car was leased from the Santa Fe by the REA. It was painted by the REA as an experiment to help the crews out with the glare.

Update: In a recent discussion with a retired Rail in Barstow, CA., brought to light that the leased baggage cars were painted to resemble other REA cars in their fleet. He said of these cars, "You could recognize them by their paint job, a black roof and green sides". He went on to say the intent was to remove the Santa Fe lettering and replace it with Railroad Express Agency, lettering but this was never done. When, REA went under the cars were returned to the Santa Fe and rode out their days as painted, until the mail contract was given to the airlines.

If we knew... the number I.D. of these cars, we could trace them. I'm not sure the history of these cars would of been added let alone mention of the paint scheme. As Ben said, there is no record of these and that's correct.

As I said earlier, I have little faith in the work of railfan's rostering equipment and then putting it into print. Much is up to the discretion of the author and he or she can leave out or add what they wish. Other actions taken by railroads may go unnoticed by railfans, as well. I take pretty much everything that is in print today with a grain of salt, if authored by none rails / railfans.

Now, how do we get into the Santa Fe papers to track these cars down. Most of that has been destroyed or what's been saved is sitting in museums or private homes across the nation.

Other then memories of these cars, the few pictures that we have and the rest of the pictures being black and white we are kind of left to flounder.

For me I will put my trust in the old Rail in Barstow and my Dear Old Dad.

Edited change and add on:

On the other hand: If you ever want to talk to someone who is a preferred and trust worthy student of the Santa Fe, it is Ben, Russel, and Charlie. You can trust what they have to say. These guys are just about the only one's I will differ to.

I need to add here. There is a problem. Most of what is written knowledge, that we have of any railroad has been written by none rails. Thus what we have is not always conclusive or absolute. Projections at best.

I come from a family of rails and the one thing I've heard time and again is "Let it be our little secret" with regard to the internal workings of a railroad. I remember hearing the expression "Railfans, what do they know?". Or "Hear we go again those darn railfans are stirring things up again". Rails gave railfans the nick "Foamers". "Yep, they're out foaming again", "All over the tracks", "We may need security out here", "Is the bull anywhere near by?" "No but the railfans are full of it". And heard from the railfans,
"Well, you know them rails, they never want to let you in on the real goods".

Now, go believe what you want to. Heck, I'm not in charge of that.

Have fun!

 

What about Steve Sandifer?

 

I think a problem for car historians is that photographers, both official and railfan, in those days often concentrated on the motive power thinking the cars were not as interesting, so today the only documentation we have of some cars is a blurred or out of focus shot them in the background of yet another shot of PA's or F units. Most railroads shared a common habit of keeping records of everything and often every loco and car had a record card that showed everything done to it for accounting purposes but every now and then old records were cleaned out to make room or when moving offices, so finding them after all these years if they still exist would be treasure hunt worthy of Indiana Jones. If the people who were there at the time say Santa Fe had green baggage cars I'll believe them, the fact that there are no surviving records of them doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Anyway Walthers has painted the Santa Fe baggage car silver now. Whatever colour I'm getting two or three. As I've said in other posts, you can't have too many baggage cars.

 

Charlie,
I'll throw out another theory on the black roofs. If you have access to the old Farrington series of railroad books from the 1940's, you'll see photos of ATSF streamlined cars with black roofs prior to WW2 behind steam. I'd surmise that the oil smoke would quickly dirty up a roof and what better way to make a roof look not so dirty than to paint it a dull black. Even after the advent of diesels such roads as the NYC and Southern painted their silver roofs black to mask the dirt problem. Just a thought.

 

With regard to what my friend Charlie V. says about the gray, smooth sided and black roofed baggage cars. He is correct, in that, this is how they were delivered to the Santa Fe. To my knowledge none of the smooth sided cars atsf baggage cares were painted green and that holds true for the corrugated cars. However, a small number of smooth sided ones were painted green by the REA...not the Santa Fe. I may have misstated that originally.

As time went on Santa Fe did shop many of it's passenger cars and they ended up in different/other paint and paint schemes. Sadly, when many of the Pullman stream line cars begin to show rust and welded patches were required, they were painted a bright, but not shiny, aluminum color.

So, In essence we are all on the same page. However, there are those who will deny the existence of the REA cars. That's ok with me. They probably didn't see them, didn't have a relative that worked for REA and so on.

You see it's not my place to be the convincer...just state what I saw and know. You can decide what you want to believe. It's not in my job description to make a believer out of you.

This thread did prompt me to do more research on the green sided Santa Fe baggage cars. I found little in the way of published articles and facts to back me up. This thread reflects some of the research. The most note worthy is what I've heard from retired Santa Fe Rails. The rail I talked to, didn't hesitate to share what he knew about these cars and talked about them as if they were common knowledge. That's all the convincing I need.

You all have fun, you hear.

 

Who Is Steve? More On The Unusual and Oddities.

Sorry, I don't know Steve and I haven't had a chance to interact with him. I did take a look at Steve's work and I found my self thinking this is good stuff.

I know Charlie, Ben and Russell from having swapped out war stories,arguing with them and exchanging notes. These guys are intent on giving you the straight stuff.

Here's the real deal. We've all grabbed a hold of, pieces of a puzzle. Some have concentrated on what they can document...denying all else. Others are more open to possibilities that aren't documented. When we get together and start to put the missing pieces together (the puzzle thing) we begin to see the bigger picture. Do you git my drift?

Just remember, what we have in print today is not conclusive or absolute. It appears we've dropped the ball, in that we haven't done so well documenting the unusual or oddities.

Enough, reality checking, slapping on the back and that a boy's. Now, let's get back to the fun of operating trains.

Have fun!

 

There were green ones!

I started looking through some books tonight to see if I could find a photo of an ATSF baggage car with three window doors like the Walthers one, when flicking through Four Ways West Publications Santa Fe in the Lone Star State, on page 124 a photo jumped out at me, it shows car #3824 at Lubbock, Texas on May 8, 1965, one of the 3800-3839 series built by ATSF from kits supplied by Pullman and assigned to mail storage service between points in Texas, and guess what, it's green with a black roof. I must have read the book a dozen time but never paid any attention to the photo. Unfortunately the doors are open and you can't see how many windows they have.

I went back to Morning Sun Books ATSF Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment to see if I missed anything there and found a photo of silver car #3713 where you can see one end of the car coupled to it, #3877, also green with black roof, and the photo below it shows another green car coupled to an RPO. #3877 is part of another 25 car series 3865-3889 built from Pullman kits in 1962. A Quarter Century of Santa Fe Consists by Fred W. Fraily lists 250 cars #3700-3949 built in batches from 1956 to 1965. The question now is how many cars were green, I'm assuming that at least 3800-3839 and 3865-3889 were, but then who knows?

I've got to study all those books I've bought over the years a bit more closely. It looks like I've got to paint a baggage car green now.

 

Me thinks you guys are on to something.

Westfalen, Nice catch. I do appreciate you sharing this find.

Russell, The thing that puzzles me about your theory regarding the green cars and possible reflection. I mean it's plausible. It's that when I watch the one green, smoothside go by in the Ibis, Ca. video. The rest of the train with the stainless steel cars goes by as silver or aluminum in color...no green reflection.

If my dad is correct, he was an REA agent, then yes Santa Fe would of operated some green tinted, smooth sided baggage cars. If the rail I talked to in Barstow, is correct then yes REA is the one responsible for the color change and they were turned back to Santa Fe, unchanged...when REA disbanded. So, it makes perfect logical sense that a few of them would still be making the rounds as green Santa Fe's.

Over the years I've had the privilege of visiting with retired Santa Fe rails, who knew little about their railroad, colors and etc. It was a job and not one they particularly cared for. While others, like us rail fanning, foamers (a endearment to be proud of) these Santa Fe hard knocks paid attention and noted the unusual and/or oddities. I was lucky to run into one of these.

Russell, there is / was another controversy having to do with Southern Pacific having FT's or F3's in the Daylight Paint scheme. Unfortunately, I was on the point of that one. As a youngster I had heard my dad talk about SP's daylight F units. I was sure there was a orange and red paint scheme out there somewhere. I chased that around like it was the proverbial Dutchman's Lost Mine. I was embarssssed on that one. It was years before my dad pointed to the Black Widow paint scheme and said there's your "Daylight" locomotives. He explained, "After all they pulled the daylights". Sigh...

On this issue of the green sided baggage cars. We were watching the same video, together and he pointed out the green sided baggage car explaining, "That was an REA car that we leased from the Santa Fe." Continuing, "They were painted to help reduce the glare and fit in with the rest of REA's equipment". He later explained that Santa Fe continued to use them until they lost the mail contract.

As I said earlier, proving this to everyone's satisfaction is the tough part.

Hey, guys I'm still your friend.

It's ok with me if you disagree. I can agree to disagree. Wouldn't be right otherwise.

Have fun!

 

Russell, I agree with you about the doors, I was hoping there might have been the odd three window version but it appears Santa Fe had a standard two window door on all its cars. What we need to settle the colour question is a good quality photo that shows silver, gray and green cars together. I'll concede that you could be right, but they do look green.

If only we could go back in time with a digital camera and take photos of everything in sight.

 

Russell,

Have you had a chance to check out the video by Sunday River Productions, The Super Chief, The Streamline Series.

I failed to mention this by name and went back to correct my original posting.

I agree they do look green...for whatever reason.

You still the man and the one I differ to for Santa Fe info.

Research isn't always fun but it certainly is interesting.

 

I guess all we can say for certain is that some smoothside baggage cars were painted something other than silver. I too thought of the colour of the lettering might be a clue, but to my eyes as well it could be white or yellow.

If I had to make an educated guess I think I'd go with gray, as I believe around this time Santa Fe's heavyweights with roller bearing trucks were painted gray while those left with friction bearing trucks remained green to make it easy for operating people to tell them apart. If green was becoming the colour on Santa Fe to distinguish cars with friction bearing trucks it doesn't seem logical that they would paint these roller bearing baggage cars green.

But that's just a theory, in the meantime I'll stick with silver cars, though a gray/green one would add a bit of variety.