3D Printing

kshep Oct 14, 2019

  1. kshep

    kshep New Member

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    Hi everyone, just starting to get into Z scale and model trains in general. Really enjoying lurking in this forum so far and I recently picked up a bunch of Micro Trains gear to play around with.

    One of my passions is 3D printing and I was excited to see that a lot of people are doing some really cool work 3D printing models and accessories for their layouts! I recently 3D printed some supports to elevate my test track I've been playing around with on my workbench (see attached). I've also been searching around for other z-scale models that I might be able to modify or use and I didn't really find much. Not much on thingiverse and most people I see are posting their designs to shapeways, but I only see a way to order prints, and not download models to print yourself. Are there any good resources out there to source actual 3D models for z scale stuff?

    Thank you!

    -Keith

    TrainWorkbench.jpg
     
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  2. wvgca

    wvgca TrainBoard Member

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    easiest way is to scale your prints .. some might have a 'too thin' wall thickness, but that's pretty easy to edit ..
     
  3. Curn

    Curn TrainBoard Member

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    I think most people are sending their models to Shapeways because the detail and surface characteristics of FXD are superior to what is currently available on home printers. Also they can set a price and get some kick back to help fund their model train addiction.

    For those of you who are making 3D models, what software are you guys using? Looking into this years ago, I never found a free program that would actually let me set precise dimensions. Almost everyone said just to draw it larger, use the grids, and then shrink it down to get around this. So if I'm going to shell money out for something, I'd like to know what is working for other model makers.
     
  4. kshep

    kshep New Member

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    Yeah, I totally get that Shapeways has access too way better printing technologies than most can get at home, but it's unfortunate that it doesn't seem to give people the option to allow others to download models to kit bash or modify themselves. I also totally get that some people don't want to share their models (that they probably invested a lot of time and effort into), but I'm surprised at how little I could find out there. I'll probably upload my elevated track pieces to thingiverse, but I wanted to check first to see if there was somewhere more specific folks were uploading woo woo woo.

    Autodesk Fusion 360 is what I'm often using to model. It's free and fairly straight forward to use, but it's more CAD focused. For sculpting and more organic stuff I either use Blender or ZBrush.
     
  5. Chris333

    Chris333 TrainBoard Supporter

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    I have an Anycubic Photon that prints much better than Shapeways. Plus the Shapeways wait times and costs have gone through the roof. In fact I decided to buy the Photon while waiting for a Shapeways print. The Photon arrived and I had my first print days before my Shapeways order showed up. Now the only reason to use Shapeways is for their brass prints.

    I use Sketchup for my 3D files. Most of the time I do the bulk of the line drawing with AutoCAD, then import it to Sketchup to make it 3D. Sometimes the file goes through Netfabb to look for problems. Last I use the Anycubic slicer software to add supports.
     
  6. kshep

    kshep New Member

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    Resin printers like the Anycubic Photon and the Form 1 (pictured on the left in my photo above) great for printing fine detailed stuff like Z Scale for sure!
     
  7. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    I have spent lots of time researching 3D printers too, and I agree, there are dozens of affordable resin printers that can blow away what I have seen produced at Shapeways. I am in the process of setting up a shop, and plan on getting a 3D resin printer, and a rotating platform 3D scanner. With the scanner I plan on scanning cars of all scales (40's through 60's automobiles and delivery trucks mostly) to make solid 1 piece vehicles for my modeling endevors. Granted, I do not know anything about scanning and 3D drawing, but if anyone else on the planet can learn, so can I.

    I had been hoping someone else would pick up the 3D scanning/printing ball and run with it, but I still see prints in the $10-15 for a Z Scale vehicle. A decent DLP resin printer can crank out 50+ of those in an hour at 30um XYZ resolution, so I would hoped people would be selling assortments of say 8 different vehicles for $25 by now. If you go on the jewelry maker forums, they use all kinds of custom blends of juice, with some being almost water vicsous that they do not bother rinsing off, rather they go from printer to UV harden, and the residual resin completely hides any hint of steps.

    Certianly some of these resins can produce finer quality that we are seeing from Shapeways:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The other thing I am researching is direct write etched brass/stainless with a fiber laser.
     
  8. shortpainter

    shortpainter TrainBoard Member

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    For better or worse, Shapeways IS the place people are uploading all the woo woo woo. However, Shapeways is also a great place to find people that are willing to make models for you. Even if the models are not intended to be printed at Shapeways! There are 3D artists that may be willing to assist you or possibly share models. There's no harm in asking.
     
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  9. kshep

    kshep New Member

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    Since you mentioned 3D Scanning, I can also speak to that a bit as I have quite a bit of experience there. For large objects like trains, buildings, etc, photogrammetry can work very well if you want a highly detailed model with great textures. However, the models they generate tend to be quite messy "polygon soup" which often require a lot of cleaning up before you can make usable prints from them.
     
  10. marmot

    marmot TrainBoard Supporter

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    I'm just starting down the 3D printer path. I have purchased several prints from Shapeways, but lately I've been very frustrated with how very brittle the thin walls are of some FUD or FXD models (partly a problem with someone else's thin wall design, but also a problem with the material). I want to use photogrammetry to 3D scan various things in larger scales, resize and modify the design as appropriate for smaller scales, and reprint it myself. Just recently I noticed this video on Youtube: where someone explained what worked and what didn't work for him with photogrammetry. He used software called 3DF Zephyr Free, which has a limit of 50 pics. Sounds good to me. But even the next level up in their licensing really isn't too bad if you have a bunch to scan and need higher quality. It's also very interesting to see his paint splatter method worked incredibly well.

    So would a roughly $300-$400 3D printer with a tiny nozzle like 0.2 mm be able to produce acceptable prints for Z scale? What print resolution do you think you would need?
     
  11. kshep

    kshep New Member

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    I've been using RealityCapture for Photogrammetry it's really great, though it has a monthly subscription fee.

    This is a pretty good explanation of the process:

    https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Jos..._Need_to_Know_about_Photogrammetry_I_hope.php

    In general, the more photos you take the better, 50 probably isn't enough to get a really good model, unless it's a really simple small object. I recently used photogrammetry to capture a model of an old house. You can view the end result here:

    https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/montfort-hall-f14b2a57f55e4b1abeda19393e0a9f2d

    It took ~2300 images to make this model. I used a combination of handheld SLR photos and photos taken from a drone.

    I feel like the challenge of using photogrammetry for something big like a locomotive would be getting enough photos from all angles. You definitely need to get photos from up high, so given the size, you'd probably need to use a drone, not sure a really tall pole would even work.

    As for what type of printer, the main options are FDM (Fused Deposition Modeling) or SLA (Stereo Lithography Printing). You can find a decent overview of the pros and cons here. https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/fdm-vs-sla/ In general SLA is going to be higher quality and better at small details, but it's more expensive and messier. FDM is pretty great too, but it's not going to get as fine of detail. If you want to print z scale stuff (especially if you want to try to make train shells or anything that fine and detailed) SLA would probably be best. However, if you are looking to make more structural stuff bridges, road beds, maybe even some buildings, FDM probably would suffice. I have both kinds of printers and I spend more time using my FDM printer (mostly because it's less of a mess).

    I really like the Prusa FDM printers. The new mini printer they just announced would probably be a great budget started printer https://blog.prusaprinters.org/original-prusa-mini-is-here-smart-and-compact-3d-printer/
     
  12. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    I think the only thing that a .2mm nozzle printer could pull off well are bricks and cinder blocks, so brick buildings and foundations, or things that have courses like tile roofs, retaining walls, that sort of thing. Somebody called "Outland" cranks out nozzle printed models in Z Scale on eBay, and their autos and trucks look bogus, but some of their structures look somewhat convincing.

    Things to remember about convincing Z Scale models...

    Flat looks phoney: Etched Brass telephone poles don't convince me, where a thin bamboo toothpick can pull it off, because it's round. Don't use etched brass here.

    Thick looks toylike: 3D printed handrails and grab irons turn an otherwise nice model into the child or gumball machine toy. Use wire or etched brass to get that thin finescale look, instead of scale 14" sewer drain sized pipe for handrails. Don't 3D print handrails and grab irons.

    Nothing simulates a material better than that material itself: If you have the choice of using scale plywood, paper, or plastic to make a wood building, the natural grain of the wood will show through with plywood, where paper will have a hayfield mesh surface, and plastic too smooth to be convincing. That's why it's far less work to make a wood structure out of wood look convincing. 3D printed pallets look bogus compared to ones made from scale lumber or even laser cut plywood. Plaster sidewalks and roads look better than paper or plastic ones. Look at the surface finish of a material to decide if it is suitable for your model, and select only the most convincing materials.

    When in doubt, smaller looks better: You have heard the term "Selective Compression" used in model railroading for decades. It's wisdom passed down from the tried and true. Sometimes you want to fill up a scene fast, and the easiest way to do it is to build a large model. Giant warehouses, larger trees, multi story buildings are easier, I get it, but the most convincing scenes have lots and lots of smaller warehouses in the same area, more smaller trees of different sizes in the same area, and limiting structures to 3 of 4 stories instead of skyscrapers. This is model railroading, and skyscrapers are usually nowhere near the railroad tracks. You can't load a boxcar from the 6th floor. What you can do is have more structures uphill behind the foreground structures. Lots of smaller warehouses connected by overhead walkways, pipes, conduits and ducts will look better.

    Use a macro photo of your model compared to a prototype photo: To see if a model or scene is convincing enough, take a closeup picture, and examine it on your computer, zooming in at the details and compare to something real. If the texture is gritty 3D printed handrails, you can bet they are also fragile, and toylike. Use a more convincing material like real wire. If you ballast looks symmetrical like Z scale river rock or termite droppings, they will show up in the photos. Switch to real crushed rock ballast and stop using rounded woodland scenics walnut shell blender ballast.

    The point being here is that any modeling technology can be convincing, but only for certain things. Mix and match the materials and technologies used to the most convincing advantage. This both speeds up your modeling efforts and produces to most convincing models.
     
  13. kshep

    kshep New Member

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    All very good points @rray! Definitely good to view 3D printing as a potential piece of the puzzle, not a full solution to all of your modeling needs!
     
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  14. Chris333

    Chris333 TrainBoard Supporter

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    So far I've only used my printer for HOn30 models, but others have made N scale cars with them and I see no reason why Z wouldn't work.
    This is a HOn30 gondola printed with a Photon:
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/cgcMx1tPGaXxkiqi8
    With paint:
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/pt1eXMUPPs3NYEsR9
    Different design:
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/f17jNHs542QuR5aW9
    Boxcar:
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/bh8mG36k9sweaskW9
    Nother boxcar:
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/z7Ji86gKSmb6fHLi9
    Random raw boxcar prints:
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/BeaYusY5mtq6XFdB7
    Mine car:
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/K2JTM9WCocU2j3qk6
    Caboose:
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/6BSr3iJZihZZUNsw7

    Even the trucks under the cars are printed:
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/tywC6XPDmNTyKjyY8

    You can also make detail parts or structures. I've also made locomotive boilers, domes, cabs, tenders, cylinders, just about anything. Just another tool to use to get what you want.
     
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  15. HoboTim

    HoboTim TrainBoard Supporter

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    3D printing has a special place in the hobby!

    It has always been promoted for its RP ability!

    RP = Rapid Prototyping!

    RP never equaled, for the most part, Rapid Production!!!!

    Too many people have praised RP as the Be All-Do All for the hobby!!!

    The only person who has impressed the hell out of me with his RP was Mark Gasson. He owned a German made resin type printer! The flat sides of his box cars were just that, FLAT. Round sides were Round. Looked like plastic injection once painted! No layered lines could be seen and for some reason his items were flexible and not brittle.

    Shapeways FUD? Super fine printing but Lines, Lines, Lines, Lines, Lines...….. Get the picture? Oh, and brittle!

    Don't get me wrong!! I do have a variety of Z scale stuff in FUD from Shapeways but...…… You can talk to me till you are blue in the face that RP is the greatest thing since the earth was created and your talk will be falling on deaf ears! Combinations of injected plastics, etched metals and cast metals are the Be All-Do All with me! Enough said!

    Robert Ray! I am glad you are on the path you have chosen after coming to your conclusion after doing all your research on 3D printers. From the research I have done, you are spot on! I look forward in seeing your creations!

    Detail is Z scale is difficult enough already to duplicate without having to worry about constant layered lines to deal with. They don't file/sand easily. Makes realism difficult to recreate in Z scale with all of the lines. If/when you can smooth the lines you usually wind up removing fine details too.
    I prefer not to use RP unless I have no choice.

    Two Cents Given
     
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  16. shortpainter

    shortpainter TrainBoard Member

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    Your complaints about Shapeways FUD(now called "fine detail plastic") are valid. That's why I print in brass almost exclusively. All brass prints go into a tumbler that cleans up the surfaces. Usually with good results. Sometimes the results are amazing and it looks like it came out of a mold! I have seen other companies that will print in brass and promise superb quality in high volume with no difference between each part. I got some quotes and the prices are three to four times Shapeway's cost. While that kind of quality is tempting, Shapeways still win out due to its low prices and "good enough" quality.

    For this model, all but the handrails are 3D printed in brass. I made no effort to smooth the surfaces.

    IMG_1462.jpg
     
  17. Kurt Moose

    Kurt Moose TrainBoard Member

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    You do have about the cleanest brass shells I've seen!:D
     
  18. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    That is a clean shell. I have been on the fence about these locos but might just give one a try.
     
  19. marmot

    marmot TrainBoard Supporter

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    I thought it wasn't long ago that resin 3D printers were all quite a bit more expensive than FDM 3D printers. I'm surprised to see there's now a larger selection of resin printers that are less than $300 compared to "decent" FDM printers about the same price.
     
  20. HemiAdda2d

    HemiAdda2d Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Robert
    I'm a complete n00b to 3-D printing of any sort, and have seen Shapeways "quality", so how in the world did someone print that cathedral and other parts so small and DETAILED?!?
     

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