I have a friend that rode the train in 54' and wants to recreate it. He remembers a std. Budd dome and not not much else. Is his memory correct and what would be a close enough consist to put together for him?
well according to the wiki..the consist was : * EMD F3A Locomotive #23L * EMD F3B Locomotive #23A * EMD F3B Locomotive #23B * EMD F3A Locomotive #23C * Baggage-Mail #3405 * "Chair" car / Coach (44 seats) #2891 * "Chair" car / Coach (44 seats) #2864 * Lunch Counter-Diner #1599 * "Chair" car / Coach (44 seats) #2911 * "Chair" car / Coach (44 seats) #2888 * "Big Dome"-Lounge * "Chair" car / Coach (44 seats) #2865 * "Chair" car / Coach (44 seats) #2905 * Lunch Counter-Diner #1553 * "Chair" car / Coach (44 seats) #2876 * Round-end "Chair" car / Observation (38 seats) #3197 Not sure how these relate to available models though
Not sure about the 1954 consist but Look Model has cars for the 1956 El Cap. http://www.lookweb.jp/~valval/el-capitan/el-capitan.html
If you believe Wikipedia, the Budd "Hi Level" cars were not delivered until 1955 (but see below). Prior to that the "Big Dome" lounges saw El Capitan service, but only one per consist. W. David Randall's "Passenger Car Library" indicates 1956 delivery for the "Hi Level" cars ordered in 1955. The first eight "Big Dome" cars were delivered 1/1954-3/1954 so it is possible that the 1954 train that Tony's friend rode included one of these. Ben
My friend swears that the cars were not the bi-levels and the dome was not a full dome. Maybe his dates are off. He said he rode it in early 54.
The only other dome cars were the "Pleasure Dome" cars built by Pullman, numbers 500-505 that were used exclusively by the Super Chief. Santa Fe had no dome cars built by Budd other than the "Big Dome" cars. The domes on these were not full length but almost. See photo: http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/sfe60.jpg Ben
Skipgear and all tuned in, Your friend is probably right and the dome car he rode in may have been a Dome Vista aka Pleasure Dome, built to Santa Fe specifications. It just hit me as I was reading the input from our friend Ben, of the AB&CRRone notoriety. He pointed out that a full dome was delivered in 1954. May I suggest, it bumped out a dome vista from one of the Super Chiefs or Chiefs, making the Dome Vista available for use on other name trains. The El Cap., known to be a chair car only train. During it's early years, it didn't sport a Dome Vista. In later years as the Full Dome's arrived, they may have become a temporary part of the consist . Unless, Santa Fe wanted to see how customers would react to a dome car on the El Cap., and a full dome on the Super Chief. I believe it's safe to say this is possible. Research: You might want to check out the latest issue of "the Warbonnet" or visit the SFRH&MS website. I've never been one to trust absolutes Ie., as presented by a railfan putting themselves out as an expert. W-pedia is new to me and I approach the info shared there with caution. No malice or offense meant toward any of these resources. The resources I trust are the manufacturers built date and delivery records. I also trust Santa Fe's car delivery and operations records... inaccessible to this TB participant. Nor should you take what I say as absolute. The difficulty here is, there is little recorded that we can trust or use as research. I know, I'm making this difficult. My childhood memories are sketchy at best: I recall visiting the Santa Fe Depot and Harvey House, Casa Del Desierto, Barstow, Ca.. I was standing with my dad as we watched a passenger train departing Barstow, north bound for San Francisco, Ca.. Possibly the San Francisco Chief and I heard him comment about a car that didn't belong in that consist. A rather frequent occurrence. I know details, details, details but I don't remember the car. Sorry, that's it and he isn't here to ask. God rest his soul. Fact or Fiction you can decide: Various pieces of equipment was tried out on a number of name trains upon the delivery to the Santa Fe property. This may explain why in early photos you see heavyweights with a spotty mix of streamline passenger cars. A high number of Pullman sleepers. It is possible someone could have ridden in a Budd built dome, on several name trains. Deviations: With regard to the full dome... I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes up with a photo of the full dome aka "Big Dome", dated 1954, showing it tied in on the tail end of short passenger car consist... loaded with Santa Fe railroad officials. It's also possible we will find a picture of a dome vista in the wrong train consist. Santa Fe, was also known to borrow equipment from other railroads as well operate trains with run through agreements Ie., NYC and the Pennsylvania RR. Santa Fe used whatever equipment was available to make up trains for overflow as extra's. Including equipment to be transferred. It was common to add passenger cars to a name train or extra sections... other then those customarily assigned. That's enough editor-railizing, don't you think? I only hope this helps. I believe Skipgears friend is correct. It's entirely possible he enjoyed the benefits of riding in a Budd manufactured Dome Vista aka Pleasure Dome. Have fun!
Tony, to answer your friend's question, assembling even a stand-in for the all coach El Capitan consist using RTR cars would be difficult. If he is serious about a correct typical consist I suggest he take a look at car sides available from the following and others: http://nscalesupply.com/mrs/MRS.html The following 1952 consist from the ATSF resource site gives a pre-hilevel consist that would be consistent with cars run in 1954 except for the unknown dome car: ATSF3481 BagDormChair ATSF2872Lwt2861-2911 PS Chair ATSF2903Lwt2861-2911 PS Chair ATSF2888Lwt2861-2911 PS Chair ATSF1562Lwt1550-1565 Budd LCD (lunch counter diner) ATSF2865Lwt2861-2911 PS Chair ATSF2922Lwt2912-2945 PS Chair ATSF1347Lwt1347-1349 PS BarLounge ATSF2896Lwt2861-2911 PS Chair ATSF2864Lwt2861-2911 PS Chair ATSF1561Lwt1550-1565 Budd LCD ATSF2939Lwt2912-2945 PS Chair ATSF3247Lwt3246-48 PS CoachObs Ben
This may endup being a collection of Kato Chief cars and some Con-Cor buds mixed in. He is more interested in the feel of the train than the exact consist. Looks to be a baggage/dorm, a bunch of coaches, a dinner/lunch counter, and an observation will make a nice abreviated consisist. I would like to make it right for him but close enough may have to do. Thanks for the help.
Exactly what I do. I'm a "feel" modeler myself. I do use the Bachmann "Big Dome" in my El Capitan consists at times. Other times not. Ben
I wish Kato, Atlas or even Con Cor would come out with a correct full dome with the proper lettering. Looks like you guys have solved the problem without my help. Nice work! Hey, I tried! Have fun!
The Hi-level Passenger Cars? Question: The website provided showing the hi-level passenger cars are these N scale or HO. If N scale can you provide more information with regard to how we can order these. If not N scale...oh well!
Rick, those are N Scale limited run brass models. Each car goes for $130-$170 depending on the car type.
On Kato's web site they have a form to request a train to be made. Everyone interested should just go fill out that form. If they see several people ask for El Capitan, given that it sounds like it would mostly be re-decorating Super Chief equipment, they'd surely give it some thought.
Mostly redecorating Super Chief equipment??? But Super Chief was all first-class....lots of sleeping cars, no coaches, and pre-hi-level El Capitan all-coach. Only head-end cars, diners and possibly a non-dome lounge would have any similarity.
The "Plains Race". While I speculate you can learn. No problem with that. A nawing memory has been nagging at me ever since the subject of the Budd built "Pleasure Dome" came up. First a little history: It seems to me that at sometime shortly after the Korean war, Santa Fe did experiment with the domes. One of the first ones delivered may have been used on the Chief, as well as other AT&SF passenger trains. The delivery date for most of the stream line Super Chief sets fell behind and Santa Fe attempted to resolve the problem by putting together various sets of available streamline passenger cars mixed with heavyweights. Initally, the Chiefs ran as Santa Fe's finest. Pulled by steam with the finest heavyweight cars available. As the Super Chief streamline sets arrived the Chiefs ended up taking a back seat. As though to prove the Super Chiefs were faster, finer, all pullman, at no extra fair the schedule was set up so the westbound Chief left Chicago in the morning while the Super Chief left in the afternoon. Allowing a business man to remain at his desk and catch a later train. At Topeka, Kansas the Super Chief would catch up with the Chief and pass it. This is where the "Plains" race started. The two first class trains chasing the fast mail, would begin a fast paced dash across the plains. Eventually the Chiefs were upgraded to the streamline passenger cars. I don 't recall them ever having a dome type of car. The El Capitan, a first class chair car train ran a slower schedule stopping at stations to pick-up passengers where the Chief's flew by with nary a wave. Other trains like the Antelope, Grand Canyon basically operated as milk trains. Defined, milk train means stopping at every known station stop or flag stop. Now the nagging memory: I remember a friend who said he rode the El Capitan, and got a chance to ride in the dome car. No one seemed to have a ticket to ride in the dome and the conductor allowed those on the train to take turn about gazing out of the windows at the passing scenery. That had me scratching my head in wonderment and disbelief. And, now Tony H. shares a similar story with a friend of his. All I can say is there must be something to it. Well, after all my babbling/blabbering last time I can only thank-you for giving this a read. Have fun!
