New to model railroads and Z scale!

jasonkc25 Dec 27, 2013

  1. jasonkc25

    jasonkc25 TrainBoard Member

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    Good morning all,

    My name is Jason and I'm brand new to z scale and fairly new to model railroads. I still have my father's O Scale Lionel from 1946 that runs on a circle track around our Christmas tree and when I was younger my father and I made an attempt at N scale...but I always thought z scale was something special.

    For this Christmas my wonderful wife bought me a used Marklin 81565 starter set (which came with an additional misc. box car). After a tiny bit of oil and cleaning the wheels and track it runs like a champ. And as fate would have it the Great Train Expo is in town tomorrow...so of course now I have to go and check things out.

    BTW, I'm in the Kansas City area, but relocating to Dickinson, ND in the latter half of next year.

    I'm excited to try my hand at making a small, simple, table top layout.

    Hello everyone!

    Jason
     
  2. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    Welcom to Trainboard Jason, and congratulations on receiving a Marklin Z Scale set! If you have a wonderful wife, it's a wonderful life! :D
     
  3. jasonkc25

    jasonkc25 TrainBoard Member

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    Thanks, Robert!
     
  4. shamoo737

    shamoo737 Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Welcome to Trainboard. You will love the small size and the amount of scenery that you can fit in a small footprint. Please post progress pictures of your layout. Everybody brings their own unique talent, and we can appreciate the work and planning that went into building it.
     
  5. jasonkc25

    jasonkc25 TrainBoard Member

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    Thanks John.

    I was a little concerned with the amount of stuff available for Z scale, but it seems part of the challenge is scratch building and kit bashing.

    Jason
     
  6. markm

    markm TrainBoard Supporter

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    Jason,
    Welcome to Z. In the past couple of years there has been quite an increase in Z scale product: GPs, SDs, even an RDC. There are some really talented scratch builders in Z (not me) but you really don't need those skills to enjoy Z.
    The Marklin set is a good one. I've run one for years. One issue with Marklin is that their couplers don't mate with the American (AZL,MTL and more). You might want to purchase or build a transition car (Marklin one end, American on the other). It would let you use American cars with your set without having to change couplers.

    Mark
     
  7. jasonkc25

    jasonkc25 TrainBoard Member

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    Thanks for the tips. I hadn't even considered the issues with couplers yet. In fact, I haven't even considered any issues really. Still having fun watching this little train go around in circles! lol.

    So how much of a concern is it in regards to matching 'period' cars and locomotives, etc...? As of right now I know nothing and I can guarantee I will end up purchasing stuff because I think it looks good, not so much if it makes sense. Heck, I only have one locomotive at the moment. And I have to admit I have an affinity for the older steam powered locomotives and look forwarding to being able to make landscapes more than city and town scenes.
     
  8. David K. Smith

    David K. Smith TrainBoard Supporter

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    Not to dissuade you from Z scale model railroading, or to be a Debbie Downer, but I'd think along and hard about getting started in the hobby with Z scale. Just to offer a somewhat different, perhaps more honest perspective, please have a look at this editorial--

    http://1-220.blogspot.com/2009/07/not-recommended-for-beginners.html

    Regards for the holidays!
     
  9. jasonkc25

    jasonkc25 TrainBoard Member

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    David,

    Thanks for the link. I actually read that article a few weeks ago when I was researching getting into model railroading.

    A big factor for me is indeed the size. I currently have a small house that simply does not have space to dedicate an entire room to a model railroad.

    Additionally, I come from the micro rc heli hobby. 50-100 gram fixed and collective pitch birds. So I'm somewhat familiar with dealing with tiny motors, bearings, wires, lighting, etc... I don't fly them anymore as I spent more time fixing than flying. But these guys require exact precision and lots of 'do it yourself' work.

    I've seen your work and it is incredible so I don't take your words lightly.

    Thanks,

    Jason
     
  10. rvn2001

    rvn2001 TrainBoard Member

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    Hi Jason,
    Welcome to Trainboard and Z scale. As luck would have it, there will be a Z scale layout at the GTE. I'm not familiar with the person or his work but I'm sure he'll be able to tell you all about our wonderful little trains. Z scale has come a long way since I started in it in 1972 and more is always on it's way. AZL has recently released a series of Mikados that operate beautifully. You should do just fine if you're used to working with the small parts in micro RC helis.
     
  11. ztrack

    ztrack TrainBoard Supporter Advertiser

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    Wow David, what a downer and an exceptionally dated article. Sorry but it is inaccurate. You write:

    "The two brands of roadbed track available are not compatible with one another or with sectional track…"

    This statement is wrong. One can easily mix Rokuhan ballasted track and MTL ballasted track together with no difficulty. Just remove the plastic rail joiners and use the metal ones. I currently have a test loop that integrates both MTL and Rokuhan. No problems at all. If you want to use the Rokuhan track with sectional track from Marklin, Rokuhan offers adapter pieces that work just great. The only visible difference is the tie spacing whereas MTL has a much better look than Rokuhan and Marklin.

    Frankly much of the frustration and learning curve has been removed. Track and turnouts have always been a sticking point, but this has changed. The Rokuhan line had made track assembly so easy today (as has MTL ballasted track). But I give Rokuhan the upper hand here due to the extensive track line and turnouts that operate flawlessly. For beginners, I have been highly recommending they start with Rokuhan and learn the scale from there.

    Locomotives such as AZL's GP38-2 are designed for those getting started. Very reliable locomotives that run exceptionally well at a low price point. Plus the wealth of high quality rolling stock and options is far more than we had a few years ago. Metal wheels and sturdy couplers all ad to the experience.

    DCC is becoming so simple today with true drop in decoders. This is a trend here to stay. AZL is committed to using a standard PCB in upcoming diesel releases so the Digitrix drop in decoders will work.

    You are dead on correct about patience.This is key, but I will argue someone trying out N or HO with a cheap low quality starter set will experience greater frustrations then starting in Z with our high quality Rokuhan track line and locomotives.

    And to me, the biggest positive to Z scale is other Z scalers. I find us crazy Zedheads to be very willing to help and offer assistance. I have had more HO modelers turn away from me in my past, unwilling to even answer a basic question. I have never had this happen in our Z community.

    Rob Kluz
    Z Scale Cheerleader!

    Oh and Jason, welcome to Z scale!
     
  12. David K. Smith

    David K. Smith TrainBoard Supporter

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    Rob, hate to pick nits, but "This statement is wrong. One can easily mix Rokuhan ballasted track and MTL ballasted track together with no difficulty" is inaccurate. I think you've overlooked the different heights of roadbed; one must be shimmed up to meet the other. Not something for a beginner. Also, the adapters for Rokuhan to Marklin may work sorta OK, but it's not an ideal mix of track, considering the one is not ballasted, and ballasting Marklin track is not for the faint of heart, either. "Drop-in" decoders still require that you disassemble the locomotive, and I've seen beginners tear their hair out trying to do that without breaking something; many would prefer to pay someone to do it, whereas DCC is standard in many newer N and HO locos. Remember, you've been working in Z scale for quite a while; I also think you tend to exaggerate--if slightly--the reliability of merchandise. I stand by my editorial; granted, it is opinion, but I base that opinion on what I have experienced and witnessed firsthand.
     
  13. shamoo737

    shamoo737 Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    I do agree that z is not the easiest scale to work in, but its not rocket science either. Its a hobby that requires skills, and sometimes you make mistakes. The mistakes will make you a better modeler. If a newbie has a problem, there's a great support system in z. I visit all the z scale forums. If there's a question to a problem, there's always somebody trying to help. Also, we are very close knit group that's not found in other scales.
     
  14. ztrack

    ztrack TrainBoard Supporter Advertiser

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    David no exaggeration. I see things for how they are all. I don't believe in over sensationallizing statements such as calling these two lines incompatible. I wrote an exhaustive review in the May/June 2011 issue of Ztrack and mentioned the height difference in the roadbed. It is a scale 1' off. But the real key is the track height. When you connect the two pieces of track together using the metal rail joiners, the rail height is near perfect. That makes these line compatible. See the photos below which shows the rail height and roadbed depth.

    [​IMG]

    Rokuhan on left, MTL on right. Note the rail height is nearly perfect.

    [​IMG]

    Rokuhan on left and MTL on the right.

    The more I have played with these systems, I have found shimming is not necessarily. Since the scale depth is so slight, I have been mixing and matching on my test loop with no shims and no issues.

    Here is a link to the issue with our Rokuhan review and article on compatibility:

    http://www.ztrack.com/issues/issues_11.html

    As for DCC on the GP30s and GP38s, remove the shell, slide out the PCB. Push in the DCC board. Done. No tools required. But you can also purchase the AZL GP30 and AZL GP38 with DCC preinstalled. It does't get any easier than that!

    I guess it is easy for me to stand by the reliability of Z scale products. Since we do all test running of AZL products here, we get a first hand appreciation on how good Z scale products have become. Just look at AZL Mikados which are being touted as running better than the N scale versions. That says a lot.

    Rob
     
  15. JoeS

    JoeS TrainBoard Member

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    Interesting reading and great debate topic. I really enjoy these type of threads. David has some very valid points as does Rob, however, I think David is speaking out from the view of a true beginner. I started Z 2004 roughly 9 years after starting N scale which was roughly 10 years after stating off in HO. (interesting pattern here...perhaps for another topic) Anyway, from my experience I had success in Z because of the support of the trainboard and yahoo Z scale groups. You all know what I think of the white markln power packs and the stalling issues and lack of slow speed. What I learned was Jorger speed controller and gaugemasters made Z viable for me. Mind you this was before sectional track and before the GP 35 changed the Z world. I would not have stayed in Z if not for the gaugemaster and Jorger because I wanted to run those darn MT moguls at speeds like my kato mikes in N. By golly with those two things I could and Z became awsome!

    Here is where David is spot on with his blog, if you have "Never" worked with model trains Z can be fustrating, it was for me but I knew about trains and where to ask for help. Not everyone is as diligent as I was and not everyone wants to become better at the skill set. That can trun people off in a hurry.

    Now for Rob, I think you have some good points. The locomotives are so much better in Z in just the last few years. The MT GP and SD diesels and sectional track, made Z very similar to my experiece in N, with not the need for special controllers to acheive performance.

    So in this day and age a beginner can experience that satisfaction in Z that they couldn't a mere 10 years ago....However the maintanance in Z is different no matter the quality of product. The smaller size requires tracks to be aligned better and cleaned better. As well and keeping the locomotives clean and lubed. In N scale locomotive maintanance is rare when using Kato and Atlas loco's. In Z even the AZL and MT loco's have to be cleaned more often (my experience) because of dust on or in the gears/wheels, once done they are back to tip top shape. This might be a hang up for some.

    In the same enviroment I roughly clean the track and wheels on my Z to N at about a 4 to one ratio to acheive optimal performance. So debate on this is good because the information is all needed in model RR to have enjoyment.
     
  16. emaley

    emaley TrainBoard Supporter

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    I have been a modeler for over 40 years. I am new to model railroading. I was amazed at the number of different skills involved in model railroading, but with the help of people here on Trainboard and the internet, you can finf info for anything you need to know. I am currently involved in N and Z and have have very good luck with Rokuhan track and AZL locos. It is by no means an impossible task. Ease into it and ask for help when you need it. The people here will have your back. Above all else, enjoy.
     
  17. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    I think that whatever scale you start with, is the scale you will most likely stay with. I have seen countless HO and N Scalers get into Z only to back out later, citing availability of models, ease of use, reliability, etc. But I have observed that those that start with a scale, seem to build early bonds with it and that is their favorite.

    Smaller is more of a challenge, finicky, frustrating, not as reliabale, but it's still satisfying, and don't take up all your space. Also... Z Scale is Cute! There I said it too... a Taboo word for Z, Cute! [​IMG]
     
  18. Loren

    Loren TrainBoard Supporter

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    Wow, this is an exciting thread and so far I don't think any punches have been thrown yet? As Jos S said, good points on both sides.

    I believe Robert has said it quite accurately, that one is likely to stay with the scale he started with. For me, it was a two edged sword...I had to consider available space, and I also will say the C word.....CUTE as all get out.

    Now Robert and I can hang together on the same gallows.

    Oh yes, one other point that was brought out.....these HO guys at shows often act like the world revolves around them. Too bad they don't realize the world is much larger than their inability to see over the horizon.

    As Rob K alluded to, Z scalers are the most helpful, friendly sort of modeler out there. If one doesn't believe that, just go to a train show and get up close and personal with the Z folks. If you ever find one that is a grump or stand offish, chances are he simply has his belt cinched too tight and can't breathe easily.
     
  19. ztrack

    ztrack TrainBoard Supporter Advertiser

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    All those in favor banning Robert Ray for using the 'C' word… reply 'aye'...
     
  20. David K. Smith

    David K. Smith TrainBoard Supporter

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    Precisely. For example: in order to connect Rokuhan and MTL track, one must remove the plastic joiners. The modeler must know to do this; straight out of the box, you cannot connect the track. It must be modified. Seem trivial? I have had more than a few beginners contact me asking how to reattach a truck that has come loose from a freight car in shipment. I have had others to whom I have sold rolling stock claim I sent them defective merchandise because wheels have popped out of the trucks. A great many of the "it's simple" remarks are made in light of knowing what to do. One cannot make any assumptions about true beginners. "As for DCC on the GP30s and GP38s, remove the shell..." This alone can be a tall order to a beginner; some are terrified of doing anything to their loco. But I think I've made my point, so I'll bow out of the discussion.
     

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