I've been away a while, but I've got a new land grant in the new garage so it's time to dust off the trains and start a new layout. Givens and Druthers: N scale Minimum curve 15" Maximum grade 2% I want double-stacks, so 43-50mm minimum clearance and more better No duck unders Wide aisles, narrow decks DCC L-Girder 8' by 13' (2.4m by 3.9m) in the middle of a 20'x20' room that has to store other things too; aisles on 3 sides and a wall on the fourth. Practical siding limits are 3-5 feet, or 10-14 cars (fewer autoracks, more 50' ore cars). The room just isn't big enough for more than double-headed trains, so through trains might have two engines, and the local just gets one engine. Have to have storage shelves under the layout, for track, trains, cordless drill, soldering equipment, etc Main deck somewhere between 1.2 and 1.5m (48-60"?) Staging on the under-layout-shelf at 0.9m (36") Helix between decks, 2.0% grade, 16.25" radius + 12" straights for 63mm climb per lap on the outside "up" track 2.1% grade, 15" radius + 12" straights on the inside "down" track. Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe Railroad, probably 1990-1996; just before beansniff ate them Arizona or New Mexico protolancing / freetyping. I know there are no rivers named after water fowl in the area, so I am making at least some of this up as I go along Layout Plan: Current plan v6: View blocks down the middle of each leg. The helix feeds into the main yard, with one industry (6 cars), services (4 engines) and about 4 body tracks. 48 car capacity (nominal) so 24 cars will make the yard "full". Through trains can drop off and pick up cars; the yard crew builds a local, which then sets off around the layout. The yard is on the right hand side because this is the longest section of layout, allowing the most room for long tracks From the yard, we have a scene break (in green) and a nice scenic Bridge. I'm picking a high viaduct type deal over a canyon. This will be the first layout feature visitors see, so I am figuring something impressive with minimal trackage. I guess this is the Duck River? left side a town, I can see 3-4 angled sidings and a run-around for the local, about 9 cars here. The scene break here could be a road overpass. 36" gives room for a 16.25" turnaround curve, so we steal some aisle space and make the aisle pinch point 70cm (28"?) to arrive at the proposed Mining Scene. (12 cars) If we want more than cosmetic slopes on the layout, the track forks here, with the "branch" in the foreground staying on this deck and the "main line" heading back to the helix and down to staging. Inside the aisle another scenic spot, I figure a cliff face with a rail track carved into it and a river at the bottom. I guess the Duck River has a gorge? Bridges over the river lead into another town. Currently two industries and 9 cars, there could be more here, but I worry about clutter. This town has a run-around loop for the local; the line continues through the helix as a "short cut" back to the main yard, but the Local won't use that, it will head back to the yard over the visible layout for operations. If the slopes on the layout are cosmetic, there is room for a track behind the industries, from the branch to the main here, and trains on the canyon-side branch can get back to staging. If the slope is more than cosmetic, that link exceeds 4%! (there's enough linear track that if it climbs most/all the time, I can get 120mm, 5" of height change on the main deck; about two laps of the helix worth. alternatively, if the main deck rises and falls or stays mostly flat, I get that link track and the helix is simpler) Highlights: The layout comprises Staging, a helix, and six different scenes separated visually and physically The whole thing can be built / detailed in stages Using the "shortcut" track out of Another Town and through the helix back to the yard, one train can orbit the main deck endlessly, for amusement or to give the operators something to avoid (Goal: come home from work, grab beer, turn train on, sit back, watch) "Through trains" can come up from staging, run across the layout and go back down to staging. (goal: make the world seem larger than the layout) There is an operational yard for making and breaking trains. A local can run out and back from the yard and switch the various other industries in v6 of the plan I even got the sidings facing the right for that local From here, where next? So, this is the track plan I have drawn so far; I am still tweaking and tuning. A coworker suggested lowering the main deck to make things more appealing to short people and small children; but it occurs to me with only 12" between decks as it is, it will be a touch hard to wire the main deck already. (and reduce the utility of the shelving under the layout) The main yard could save space by adding 3-way points on the lead and A/D track. But are they reliable in N-scale? (Peco SL-E399F) For the most flexibility running in and out of the helix, I was figuring having a crossover, like Peco SL-E383F) on the last lap. The most complicated piece of trackwork in the least accessible corner, on a 2% slope. Yeah, what could go wrong?
"Yeah, what could go wrong?" More than you can imagine. I've used the Peco electro-frog turnouts extensively (scissor crossover, 3-way, curved) with excellent performance. My biggest issue is reliability; solder joint failure, switch machine malfunction. Nothing that can't be remedied with more careful attention to detail and replacing solenoid driven points with tortoises. Regarding height I think it's easy to provide shorter folks with a small portable step or bar stools and give yourself plenty of room to work underneath; you will be spending a lot of time under there. My layout is 43" to the bottom. I can work under it laying on one of those large rubber exercise balls.
I've had a play with the plan, I can make the yard the high-point, and get 120mm (two laps) of drop around the main deck. If I turn the ladder around and relocate the services across the main, I can replace the wye with... a double slip! Bonus being I already own a spare one of those, but would have to order in any 3-way points. I like the idea of having tortoises under the layout and will have to amass a supply as the CFO allows. and will definitely take care with soldering. As well as the mechanicals of putting a Peco Electro-frog double-slip in the middle of Atlas C55 rails. Upside is I own a dremel now, should enable making violent mistakes with ease! Will need to work out how to put two tortoises under the helix so they work well and clear the next lap. Now that the layout is approximately taking shape, I will next need to investigate transferring the plan from the computer to the real world, and see what issues crop up there (reach, visibility, how to construct the roadbed, wiring, etc)
What track will you use? I assumed Peco c55. I did my layout with c55 but there are several places where I had to connect to other track; two Shinohara c70 diamonds because Peco didn't have the needed angle, and MicroEngineering c55 bridge and trestle flex track. I also bought several Atlas c55 curved turnouts but haven't used them yet. The Dremel tool is my preferred destructor to create the transitions from foreign track to Peco c55. It's an acquired talent to do the job right. Practice, practice, practice. I also did my layout on the computer using CadRail. It's reassuring to know that the layout can be built with known grades and alignments. I pushed the limits of grade and alignment and learned that there's some discrepant error between what the computer says and what I was capable of building. Overall my layout works as intended but there were still a few places where the track is dodgy. Your layout appears to have a more conservative implementation which will minimize the challenging track. Another thing to watch out for is where the supports lie under turnouts. I didn't completely anticipate that and I have at least two out of 64 turnouts that required some creative linkages. There's also the challenge that I haven't worked through to use tortoises to drive the scissor crossover. The tortoises are too large to mount side by side under the track and there wasn't room to mount them any other way. I used Peco solenoid switch machines mounted under the points for those locations. I wish I had taken into account the mounting of turnout machines in the design phase.
I like l-girder, I can move the joists away from the points My existing track is mostly atlas C55 flex and points, with some code 80, maybe peco flex and atlas points? Plus a peco c55 double slip and 2-3 peco c55 points. I guess I will buy more parts as the CFO allows I know all too well that what the computer can draw, isn't always what I can build I am also learning not to be too optimistic with points; a little room to wiggle can be reduced; but an impossible arrangement cannot be wiggled. So we will see
Just saw this,, looks pretty cool. To eliminate the wiggle room,, why not print 1:1 so you can just transfer the drawing to the benchwork? Looking forward to pictures. C-ya, Y-it
My printer is a little old and hard to find parts for; not sure it would be too keen on printing 60+ square foot of layout 1:1. But what I do have is a roll of newsprint 2.5' wide; so I figure on making me a curved jig at 16.25" and 15" radius (a straight piece of wood with notches makes for a great compass, so long as you can drive a pin/nail at the zero point), drawing a bunch of curves on paper or plywood, and then printing the yard ladders or even setting the points out and tracing around them. Then I will storm the shed with fists full of rolled up paper and, like a mad genius, wave the paper around until I create Life LIFE!, or at least have a working plan in the space. Very important then will be to test assumptions. Put a little cardboard engine on the plan and push it around ("choo choo" noises optional) and see if Future Me will be able to run the train without tripping over things and peopl; if the pinch-point off the helix is really trouble free; see just how the train will come out of the helix onto the deck... Poke and prod the corners and see that the 2d drawings work in the 3d room - I mean, I have been quite conservative with this plan so far, maybe too conservative; but I also want to avoid frustrating myself by planning myself into a corner. Anyway, the construction thread continues apace; this week I should get the L-griders up and I can start pinning paper in places to start the evil genius stages.
Looking forward to seeing details on the start of construction. I'm very much feeling the strain of analysis paralysis, but then I've got other activities to keep me busy (dropping more electric into the layout space, for example). Good luck! Gregory
With L-Girders clamped in place, I snuck into the train room and did some tests for practicality. The large sheet of plywood is standing in for a backdrop, 22" above the lowest subroadbed (1315mm above floor, 51"), showing how the view of the back wall will be covered, making the bridge that will be right in front of that plywood the focal point of the room More pics in my gallery; more stories in my construction thread.
Apparently I neglected to include a picture of the Staging layer. Along the top we have a set of staging tracks, all the same length. I plan on having a "sector table" arrangement that pivots to provide access to one track in less space than a typical yard ladder, and also using zero turnouts, to save money, to spend on engines and turnouts on the main deck Since SCARM doesn't have a sector-plate arrival track template, I'm just using a turntable as a reasonable approximation. The two turnouts that appear to go nowhere at 12'o'clock are the bottom of the helix; 16.25" and 15" at 2% (okay, 2.1% on the inside track, so it will be notionally down and the outside track notionally up). The tracks down the layout, approximately under "another town" on the main deck allow trains arriving on the inner track nose-first to nose-over to the workbench for repairs. I expect the Program Track will be either over here, or on the main deck on the RIP track (seems appropriate). From the workshop tracks, the train can then back around the outside of the helix and back into staging, so it is facing nose-out for the next run. The main deck is supported by legs, the most important of which are 10 squares from the top of the picture, about where the bench narrows to 24", which falls in the "V" of the reverted loop. As drawn, the body of the workshop yard will actually hit legs, so the track will have to come inboard or outboard to clear them. I expect to lay some unscenic soft foam around the points against the wall, to help runaway trains to fall gracefully onto nice soft foam instead of a 2-3' swan-dive onto cold hard concrete.
I can approximate a spiral helix in SCARM by using 45° curves of each ever-increasing radius. 14" minimum, 1.25" ramp, 12" straight (thus oval) and 2.2% grade just clips the leg (so a 38.5" footprint) one turn early. If the support 6 loop 4 track came in by about 1", it would clear the leg handsomely, and the next lap can sit on top of the leg. No I won't notch the leg to accommodate the helix, I need that leg to hold up the L-girders! This approach gives me about 11.5" down to staging and 4.5" up from main deck, while narrowing the pinch to the Mining area to about 22". It might be possible to bring that to 24" with.. clever.. benchwork @ppuinn have you ever considered changing the ramp width on successive laps? Obviously your spreadsheet will need.. tweaking.. (I'm already beating it up to give me both mm and inches so I can think in both) It occurs to me that the wider ramp is more useful on lower levels, where there's not-quite double-stack clearance, but later levels can have a few mm of overhang and still miss the double stacks and still be able to clean the tracks Also, can I be rude and have the top exit track of a tighter radius than the loop, so it curves across inside the spiral? Obviously I will need flying supports which also reduces some of the joy of the big open bowl, but it should be possible to retain double-stack clearance with some fair-dinkum-thinkum.. Not planning to go crazy, just 90-135° across the top, so I can exit closer to where my main line currently is, and keep the yard outside the helix mostly where it currently is. Much to ponder, none of which is work-related, and speaking of, I had better go earn a paycheck! TL;DR: it might be possible to replace the complex trackwork and 2-track stacked helix with a 1-track bowl helix courtesy of ppuinn, by nudging things around and doing some creative three dimensional thinking!
Actually, does the helix need to be on the right? What if I put it on the Left end of staging, claim the walkway for the trains, move or reduce the Mining blob. then I can have all the helix work away from the yard tracks... And now I am late for work!
Putting the helix on the left doesn't really use the rest of the garage efficiently. So I have played with SCARM and open-office and some wild assumptions. If I go and drag the whole layout 2" away from the wall (making it 3950mm long, or 13'2"), the main viewing area narrows from 1000mm to 950mm (3'2") but a bowl spiral helix will clear the leg without notches or bending the helix (so the whole helix will cut out of one sheet of ply. yay). I need 46mm vertical with cork for a double-stack to hit the overhead bridge. Which means 50mm (top of bottom ply to bottom of top ply) to clear an obstacle and if the overhead is short (so bridge, not tunnel), I can probably still rerail cars. 70mm+ if I want to get the big overscale hand in to fix things however. (62mm rail-head to rail-head, with 12mm ply) If I slope the reverted loop, operation of the staging yard becomes a little too exciting, but a 6-lap helix will get me to the highest point at 2.0% grade. However, if I make the staging deck flat for reliable operation, I need a 2.1% grade (okay, 2.1% in SCARM, 2.065% in open-office) to get the same rise. 6 loops of 2.1% single track is probably not a terrible "wait" for the next train to emerge. My return track from "another town" will come in on loop 5, and being at the top of the bowl, there is at least 60mm of clearance there. The reverted loop will escape at the bottom of loop 1, which might pinch a little. Care will be required to escape at the right point. If the top track escapes loop 6 and comes across the inside of the helix, I can keep the main in the middle of the yard, as plan #06 shows. Again, top of helix means sufficient clearance. So now I must go and measure the space again; will an oval 1320mm by 1030mm fit in the space, and will the pinch over to "mining" be manageable?
Okay, I have shoved the layout over 2" and made things square again. Now we are 3950mm long (13'2", roughly). 250mm (10") climb from staging to Another Town, and another 120mm (5") climb from Another Town to the main Yard; with the rest of the trackwork falling back down to Another town (so I have a one-turn nolix along the length). 2% on the main with flat towns / yards, and 3% up to the Mining Hill. 2.1% in the Helix and it clears the table leg without notches or twists. 15" minimum curve on the deck, although most are 16.25", and 14" minimum in the helix. #5 points throughout (14x left, 15x right, 2x wye, one Peco double-slip in the main yard). No trackwork is more than 1.5' from an aisle, except the helix, which has a 36+" crawl-under (just too low to duck with my ducky back). 4" grid on the plans: Staging is 7-9 tracks using a "sector plate" at the throat to select one track with zero turnouts required, and all tracks have the same length. A "reverted loop" under the helix with a long spur down the back of the L-girder will allow trains to turn in and out of staging. Staging deck is entirely flat, for more reliability. I love this SCARM layout software. I can plan the track down to the millimeter, knowing full well when I get to the layout room, I will make plywood strips for the track and move them to fit with precision closer to one inch (25.4mm)! The plan really only sets out what might or might not fit in the space. Many words, some progress. I have the next two weeks off work, so I can start building plywood to hold tracks.
Plan is coming together Triple A, good stuff! I look forward to your continued progress, interesting to see how you are working it out. I've found track planning software to be a lot of fun, and previous experience has shown that the planning is worth the effort (at least, for me it does). Good luck, enjoy the holiday break and Happy New Year! -Gregory
Planning is only half the battle. So far my most expensive lessons have come from walking into the layout room and trying to take the design off the computer and into the real world. Today I realised that the yard "just doesn't work" at 1435mm (main deck +5") off the ground - it's too nose level for easy operations - like trying to see what car is on the third yard track! So I spent half the day and refactored the plan again, putting the yard back at 1315mm (main deck +0"). Which immediately means the helix climbs higher than the yard, so the tracks have to come away from the helix. I've lost about 4" off each track as a result (and thus the maximum train length for operations is now about 45"). Happy I discovered this before I started any woodworking! The high track behind "Another Town" is still 1435mm, because nose-height looks perty. The staging doesn't move much, so the other half a day spent guessing how to frame the underside of the helix isn't totally wasted. New Plans | | Click to embiggen Continuous Run The fourth lap of the helix is used to link the yard and Another Town, allowing for one train to be run continuously. There is one reverse loop from Another Town to the High Rail, using the last helix loop (coloured yellow below). But once a train is heading counter-clockwise, it can't turn clockwise again without going through staging. Not sure if that is a problem? Operations The local will be assembled in the main yard and then dispatched clockwise across the scenic bridge, to switch the three industries in Town, then either the branch low at Mining (1 industry, 2 tracks) down to Another Town (2 industries, 2+1 tracks), then run-around the train at Another Town and head back. Alternatively, the engine can take the other spur at Mining and switch the hilltop (2 industries, 3 tracks). At the same time, through trains (unit trains of Coal and Containers mostly) will roll from staging to staging. Options for meets at Another Town, Town and the Yard. Meets anywhere else are going to be .. problematic. The Helix (click to embiggen) Focus on the Helix. Four loops, 270mm, from staging up to the main deck, with two turnouts in the helix, one curved with easy access even from outside the helix; and one straight one currently setting up an S-curve, only accessible from the helix inside. Yes, I see the S-curve, and I plan to use a RH turnout pushed into the curve to eliminate it. I just didn't feel like arguing that with SCARM. One further lap, coloured yellow, to rise from the main deck height (1315mm, at both Another Town and the Yard) to the highest point on the layout, the rail behind Another Town that I am calling "the high rail". The Yard (click to embiggen) This one could really use labels or colours. Oh well. Right most we have four yard body tracks with a compound ladder. (say that might need re-factoring again). Wanting to shorten the ladder and get the body tracks all about the same length. Middle of the deck are the Arrival Departure track and the Main line. Left of the main, against the backdrop are two industry tracks that happen to be nearby. I figure some building flats against the backdrop to enlarge the scene. Bottom right on an angle for.. artistic reasons.. is the Yard Lead, as long as I can make it. between the yard lead and the ladder is the RIP track, which is my favourite choice for DCC programming track Left of the yard lead, two tracks for engine services, and left of that the main line departs for the bridge scene. Coda So, except the helix (14") I have a minimum 15" radius. The double-slip is gone, the two-track crossover is gone; but three wye's have snuck onto the staging deck (I own three, might as well use them!) and a pair of 3-way points have appeared in the yard throat, adding complexity to try to shave space. The helix is still 2.1% grade, the mining hill is still 3% grade, and the rest of the layout is flat or 2%, with nothing 1% anywhere I might start naming things after the pets soon - I am more likely to convince visitors that "Baxter" is a town in New Mexico, than "Another" is.
