Sputtering start to a new layout

Stephane Savard May 24, 2018

  1. Sumner

    Sumner TrainBoard Member

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    First, also love what you are doing and sharing and thanks for the recent update and please keep them coming.

    Second, are you guys buying Fusion 360? Looks like we, as hobbyist, could use it free for a year but then would have to start paying the yearly cost. If one is using it on a consistent basis I guess the cost is acceptable. I'd hate to put the time into learning it and then not use it all that much and not want to purchase it.

    Your thoughts? I use Sketchup for projects I build but looks like the free version won't create STL files. Anything else out there that works that doesn't require a yearly fee?

    Sumner
     
  2. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

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    Thank you everyone for the kind words!

    I've not tried any white glue, so far only been playing around with mod podge. Since it's gone so well so far, I don't see any reason to try anything else. I got the recipe from Luke Towan's youtube channel; the dioramas he builds are a huge inspiration.

    As for Fusion 360, it is my understanding (from an email sent to me by Autodesk) that the hobbyist license must be renewed every year, but that there is no limit to how many times you renew, up until Autodesk decides to stop providing a hobbyist option. Basically you renew each year in order to prove you are still non-commercial.

    The gondola was made with TinkerCad, but while it's really simple, I wanted to do get into something more advanced. To learn Fusion 360, I followed Lars' tutorials on youtube (search for "Lars Fusion 360" - the videos are awesome). And then from there, I started a new project and built up an HO scale cattle car for use on a friend's layout. It took me about a month of work to finish up to the point where I was ready to print, but a lot of that time was spent just learning - I would figure out what I wanted to do, then watch some of Lars' videos on the subject, and then attempt it. If I had to start over, with the new knowledge, it would take me a lot less time!

    This is the 3d file of the cattle car, at least the latest draft of the car...

    3d.png

    I say it's the latest draft, still not printed because after I printed the first one I realized that the boards spacings were all wrong, making the top billboard too narrow. Because of Fusion 360's timeline, and how each sketch is built up of relative lengths and distances, it was really trivial to go back and modify the model. I also have no idea how I could have produced the dreadnaught ends in Tinkercad. That was the single most time consuming bit in the entire model as I had to learn and try out three different methods in the program until I found the one that produced the perfect results.

    And it did print.. to a point. Being HO, it's printed in pieces and assembled. But I've got to try different ways of doing this, I haven't been happy with it (some parts are warped)


    IMG_20190914_161322096.jpg

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    Yes, I printed those cows too. But I did not produce the 3D model. I found a posable model online, and saved it to six slightly different poses, and then mirrored those poses. I further used MeshMixer to also move the ears to different angles (since they were not posable), and also made some horns smaller, and others larger. In all it gives me about a dozen slightly different cows. In any case, it's a work in progress. I'm close to starting the print of version 2.

    IMG_20191003_215443099.jpg

    The water tower was the second model I produced in Fusion 360. This one took me two evenings to produce, showing just how quickly you can pick up Fusion 360. It was all stuff I learned from the stock car! Again, HO, and made to go on my friend's HO layout. It was also the first model I painted and umm, over-weathered. I'll get better, I promise!

    IMG_20191020_184613844.jpg
     
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  3. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

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    Ok, so back to the layout!

    Last week I finally installed the NCE Powercab's panel into the front of the fascia. It was, well, hideously difficult! It should have been easy really, but something went wrong. I first selected a spade drill bit, 1", and then drilled the first hole. But on drilling the second hole, well, I hit a screw. What luck that I would decide to place the power panel exactly where a screw already existed. Turns out I had to use a 1/4" drill bit to drol out the hole around the screw, then use a metal saw blade to cut through the screw. That was a waste of time, but in the end all worked out!

    IMG_20191128_190815968.JPG

    Neat bracket for the powercab no? :) Another 3D print!

    The design is not mine, you can find this on Tinkercad, made by TomCrewe. Though I did redesign mine using Fusion 360 using TomCrewe's design as a base. Basically the differences are the addition of holes for the screws and hollowing out the thickest bits. I'm currently printing a second one that will be placed on the back of the layout near staging.

    IMG_20191128_190832213.JPG

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    I've also installed an upgraded z-axis rail on my Photon, so I'm looking forward it it helps reduce the diagonal lines on the next print! I'll know in a about five hours I suppose.

    That's it for now, enjoy!
     
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  4. RailMix

    RailMix TrainBoard Member

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    Yeah, I've been paying for Fusion 360 because I do have a Shapeways store, but unfortunately, due to work and other obligations, have not done more than produce a small number of HO vehicle parts and a steam locomotive cab. Hopefully, now that I'm semi-retired, I'll get more use out of it.
    As far as Sketchup is concerned, having perhaps been spoiled by considerable experience with both AutoCad (Yes, you can build models and export STL files with it) and SolidWorks, I found I have no patience for the quirkiness of Sketchup.
    BTW, the stock car, the cows and the water tank all look very good, as does the throttle bracket.
     
  5. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

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    Close to quitting.

    I can't get anything running smoothly at this point. I tried cleaning the track, cleaning the locomotive wheels, but anything I try only helps for five minutes.

    Two weeks ago I wanted to get back into building the track, but wanted to make sure everything can run well before I moved on, especially after that problem with the ballasted turnouts. So I put my Kato ES44AC in the yard, and started it up. Wasn't expecting to work, I finished building that yard almost a year ago, and never cleaned. As expected, very jerky movement.

    So I took out the woodland scenics track cleaning kit, and went about cleaning as best as I could. It got better, but I can never run through one end of the yard to the other without stalling at least once. Tried cleaning the wheels on the loco (with a woodland scenics product again). Doesn't help.

    I tried running one of my Intermountain SD-40w with sound. Same thing, jerky movement sound cuts out. Even on straight track. I clean the track, and it runs smoothly. I go upstairs for a coffee, and come back down half an hour later, and now runs jerky again. I have to wipe down the track yet again.

    The really frustrating thing, is I've helped a friend of mine build an HO layout. 12 x 11 layout (around the walls) with 21 turnouts and the main line is a twice around. We're using a mix of new flex track and pieces of 30 year old brass snap track he had in boxes. Once the track was all glued down, we connected one track feeder to that entire track (DCC), and the whole thing runs smoothly. Yes, some parts ran jerky at first, but he took out a brightboy eraser and scrubbed those brass turnout shiny clean, and now he runs without any problems at all.

    I even tried buying a bright boy and scrubbed my own track. No use, nothing can be made to run smoothly without constantly cutting out. Unless I run the trains at a scale 50mph. I guess momentum is allowing the locomotive to get to clearer parts.

    So that's where I am now, I'm just so tired of trying to get this working. There's just no point continuing unless I can get that track to run smoothly without having the scrub every half hour.
     
  6. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

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    So far, every piece of track outside of turnouts were soldered together. And I have track feeders that connects to every single piece of flex track between turnouts (i.e. every single spur in the yard has a feeder, and the main line has a feeder every 3 feet).

    I had initially decided that I would not solder track to any of the turnouts, relying on the rail joiners instead. I figured it would be easier to replace a turnout if I needed. But now, well, I'll go back and solder every single one of those turnout rail joiners. I just hope that this will make a difference, because I'm really fed up.
     
  7. BNSF FAN

    BNSF FAN TrainBoard Supporter

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    Looking good Stephane. That bracket for the power cab turned out nice.

    For your fascia, what color are you thinking of making it?
     
  8. StevenWoodwardNJ

    StevenWoodwardNJ TrainBoard Member

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    Stephane,

    Wow that is frustrating, sorry to hear about all the difficulties. I've enjoyed watching this build thread...

    I cannot imagine what would happen over the course of a half hour that would cause what you are describing. There are so many things to try, for starters how about trying the locos out on a fresh piece(s) of track? Does it happen even when you're near or right on top of feeders? I understand the frustration but would recommend taking a step back and going through a process of elimination.

    HO isn't a guarantee either...besides my interest in N I have built a small HO switching layout. Atlas Code 83 track, DCC/Sound locos (mix of Athearn, Atlas and P2K). I have tons of feeders, but didn't power the frogs, didn't think it would be required right away (I haven't finalized the track plan so the track is just tacked down for now). 2 Genesis and 1 P2K (4 axle) randomly stall on the turnout frogs. Some searching reveals that the 4 axle Genesis locos have a known power pickup issue. Recommendations run from new wheel sets, soldering extra wheel wipers, etc. to keep alive caps as well as powering the frogs. I will eventually get around to working this all out, but I never expected that frustating an experience. Of course small switching layouts run at super slow speeds will reveal these issues vs a mainline operation.

    I only relate that story to let you know we all go through frustrating times in this hobby. I truly hope you work your way through this!
     
  9. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

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    I've been trying to solve the issue with my locomotives and the track for a few days now, and so far, I have had some progress in some areas. Also, I really don't want to go to HO, everything I've planned for is N scale, and not thinking of switching scales. Really, it was only a comparison of how I can't get N scale track work functional vs my friend's layout that works fine even when all the conventional wisdom of track building is ignored!

    Anyway, the first thing I did was to solder every single rail joiner in the yard. Cleaned the track again, cleaned the loco wheels, and now I'm mostly getting better results. The Kato ES44AC is able to go through the yard at slow speed without too much stuttering, but I may have screwed something up with the strip pickups when I took off the shell to check the decoder. At this point I think the loco itself may have a bit of a pickup issue. Still, it runs fairly well through most of the turnouts on the layout.

    Next, my two Intermountain SD-40s also run through the yard also with a lot less stuttering. They also run perfectly well throughout the entire length of the mainline I have now. This is surprising since I didn't clean that part of the track in a while. Still, there are a few turnouts in the yard that still give the occasional stutter.

    And finally my last locomotive is a new Rapido GMD-1 (second run). This one is hopeless in the yard. At first, it was hopeless even on straight track! But I do have an NMRA standards gauge, and turns out that this brand new locomotive's wheel spacing was WAY off. Thankfully, it was actually very easy to remove the wheet sets one at a time and fix them to the nmra standard. After that, I was able to run the GMD-1 throughout the mainline beautifully! One end of the layout to the other, and even passing through the Atlas #6 remote switches without any problem (which the IM SD-40s also navigate nicely). But the yard is fiulled with manual Atlas customline #4s, and it currently seems hopeless. The GMD-1 often dies outright with one truck on a frog. What I don't understand is why the other truck isn't picking up electricity. I thought maybe the point wasn't electrified, but checking with multimeter is seems to be fine.

    But I took a picture of one area that really has me scratching my head:

    IMG_20191227_151141729.jpg

    This is one spot that the GMD-1 consistently dies. Sometimes the locomotive dies ON the frog, but if it doesn't, then it dies exactly on the spot shown in the above picture. So I laid down some toothpicks to inidicate where the axles were located and took a second picture to show where it dies...

    IMG_20191227_151421998.jpg

    Again, the toothpicks show the exact position of the wheels (4 axles). Why is it dying here? The forward truck was on clear track, but the engine just dies. I stuck some alligator clips on the track, and checked that each wheel sets can in fact pickup electricity, so as far as I can tell, the loco is fine.


    I'm more hopeful today than I was when I last posted, things are working better, and more reliably. I will also be ripping the four ballasted turnouts in the staging area. I realized today that the Kato runs through the switch perfectly, but the IMs derail every single time. I'll be looking to install something that is not an Atlas though. Maybe going to look at Peco, I have two Peco curved turnouts on my layout, and those are the ONLY turnouts where every single one of my locos run perfectly and most smoothly, without even bumping around!

    Anyway, to finish a long post, I figure I'll keep posting my progress here with warts and all. Hey, it's part of the hobby, and can't be all smooth sailing I guess.

    I'm planning to go dark grey, much like the walls of the tunnels!
     
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  10. kingpeta

    kingpeta TrainBoard Member

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    Stephane,
    I just picked up this thread and have found it interesting because my last layout suffered from many of the problems you’re having. I’m in N scale too. My locos are all Atlas or Kato, new within the last few years. I had most of my pickup problems in the yard. So much so that that I just came to expect stalling though the turnouts. I used all Atlas code 55 flex track and turnouts. I had 2 curved turnouts that gave me the most problems. I never did figure out why.
    The only thing I could tell was that I had my yard lead descend to the level of the sub roadbed. Maybe that had something to do with my problems. Anyway, as for cleaning, I found a method that worked best for me. It is termed “micro polishing” I think. There is a Bright Boy type burnisher you can buy that’s sold for electrical contacts. It is much less abrasive than most railroad dedicated products and the thinking is that it burnishes the rail without leaving microscopic scratches that dirt can cling to. So i went around the whole layout with that, then cleaned with iso alcohol, then used something called “no-oxid A”. It’s a paste sold to prevent oxidation. You wipe it on with your fingertip, then come back a day later and wipe the rails down with something clean. I use gun cleaning patches.
    That really seemed to work well. I can not run trains for a couple months and then start them up without problems at all. I think the no-oxid works it’s way onto the wheels of the locos too and helps them conduct. Another thing I did was switch to metal wheels on all the rolling stock (as time & finances permitted). They seem to stay clean longer.
    So that layout is now demolished because I felt it was complete and the fun for me is in the planning & building. The next layout I’m working on is simpler and I’m not planning to solder any turnouts in place. I‘Ve learned the hard way that you can plan on scrapping those soldered turnouts if you ever decide to reuse them. We’ll see how that works out I guess.
    So stick with it and troubleshoot one section at a time. In my opinion start with the track first. Of course loco wheels should be clean but I think any decent quality locomotive should run as expected on proper track work.
     
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  11. traingeekboy

    traingeekboy TrainBoard Member

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    Is your loco a split frame all wheel design?

    If not, then one side of one truck is either lifting or not turning to normal alignment and creating a gap.

    I had a loco on my N scale layout that became the trouble queen. I figured out it was a combo of things that would cause it to stall.

    It was a Kato 6 axle E unit. Incredible runner otherwise. So I set about figuring out what it was not handling on my switches. Mind you some other locos had the same issue all were 6 axle locos.

    I turned it upside down and ran the wheels through a switch that I was holding in my hand and could see where it was binding. It turned out that out of the factory nearly all my locos were a bit narrow on gauge. So I got a screw driver and gently pried some loco wheels wider and the problem was fixed.


    I bet your loco problem is something really simple. Get a bright light and get your eyes down to track level and play with it for a while.

    Also, check that switch. It could just be bad switch.
     
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  12. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

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    That seems to be the issue, I let the GMD-1 stall in a turnout, and checked the wheels closely. The back truck was on the frog, but one side of the front truck was lifted up and no longer touching the track. Tomorrow I'll take a closer look if this always the case, too late tonight for further investigation!
     
  13. StevenWoodwardNJ

    StevenWoodwardNJ TrainBoard Member

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    Glad to hear some progress is being made! I hope you have left some rail joints unsoldered for contraction/expansion reasons. Either way I"m glad you're not throwing in the towel.
     
  14. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

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    This morning I re-gauged each wheelset on the GMD-1. Some of the plastic flashing on the truck sideframes' molded brake shoes was also rubbing against the wheels (ironically :) ), so sanded those down. Put the GMD-1 back on the track and was able to navigate the yard much more easily. It still sometimes stalls on a turnout at slower speeds, and derails on some of the mainline turnouts at higher speeds. I'm going to be picking up some PECO turnouts and will start converting some of the worse offenders.
     
  15. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

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    Well, stores are all closed around here, so I bit stuck for the moment (couldn't buy any peco turnouts yet). But I've gone as far as I could with attempted fixes and with tests and investigation. A few things I've found...

    As far as I can tell, only two turnouts are really broken on the layout; both in the ballasted staging area. I used a dremel to try and fix them, grinding a bit of the point down, but no matter what I did, the lead trucks on the SD40s jump the points and go the wrong direction. Since those turnouts are in awkward position for maintenance, they will be changed with Peco turnouts as soon as I can buy them. Of all the turnouts, those four must work flawlessly, because they will be more difficult to access.

    The great news is that the two intermountain SD40-2w locomotives and the Kato now run throughout the rest of the layout without any problems at decent slow and high speed.

    The disappointing bit is that the GMD-1 (four axles) always dies on one turnout in the yard, and occasionally dies on a two or three of the other turnouts in that same yard. As soon as one truck in entirely on the frog, it stalls, even when going faster than normal for a yard. I checked everything I could, and as far as I can tell, the second truck is contacting the rails, so I don't know why the second truck isn't able to pick up enough current. Worse part? that turnout is at the yard throat. I really wanted that GMD-1 working in that yard, but the slowest I can get it running reliably through most yard turnouts is 13-14 scale mph. But to reliably cross that yard throat it needs to be moving at 20-25 scale mph. So unless some great idea comes forward, I've decided that to move forward, I will just have the little switcher work at the zinc mine. I'll use peco turnouts when I get around to building that part of the layout (the frogs on the peco are shorter than the atlas as far as I can tell, which is probably why the four axle switcher runs more reliably).

    Oh, one thing I did check was that the wheel on the GMD-1 do pickup current as far as I can tell. I set a multimeter to 200 Ohms, and checked each wheel pair (i.e. resistance through wheels on the same side of a truck). They all showed about 1.9 ohms.

    Anyway, at this point, enough testing, time to start building again! I can't continue on the staging area until I change out the turnouts, but I'll do something else, possibly ballast the yard!
     
  16. Mike C

    Mike C TrainBoard Member

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    GMD 1 is a Rapido model ? If so I remember reading somewhere that they were over oiled at factory and have some wheel blackining . You might try to disassemble the loco and give the trucks and contacts a good cleaning ......Mike
     
  17. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

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    Yup, it's the rapido model, but the second run, released this past October. I did take out the wheels, regauged them, and took the time to clean the inner wheels and contact strips. Before i did that, i was getting 3 to 5 ohms per wheel pair. That was the last thing i tried.
     
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  18. Gary Helriegel

    Gary Helriegel TrainBoard Member

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    Nice to see more people using 3D printing to fill in gaps in available scenery. I've designed and replaced a couple of parts, like a missing chimney for a half-built station I got used, but I've yet to try anything more ambitious in terms of modeling. For the HO cattle car, did you print flat, or on edge? I find that with the Anycubic DLP printers, the only way to reduce warping on large thin pieces is to print perpendicular to the build plate with a lot of supports so it doesn't deform the first few layers. Works great for bases on wargaming figures, so it should do nicely for car sides as well.
     
  19. gary60s

    gary60s TrainBoard Member

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    I use Sketchup free exclusively and print PDF's of all sketches using "Cute PDF". See this tutorial for an in depth look at how it works.


    Revised requirements for "Sketch-up clinic for Sss basics"

    Look at the following thread for more info on "NO-OX".


    Track cleaning, Linn Westcott, and No-Ox

    Both of these threads are at Nscale.net. Sorry for the redirect but they are lengthy threads.
     
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  20. Joe Lovett

    Joe Lovett TrainBoard Member

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    Gary, do they have any containers with less than a quart and what price range?

    Joe
     

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