As a total beginner in this hobby I have seen some negative post concerning these locos. I know that these locomotives lack certain detail and have some have incorrect paint schemes ect, but can these diesels really be as bad as some of you more experienced modellers claim? I do have a couple of RTR Bachman train sets that have these cheapies and they seem to operate fine for me. I am not arguing the point but 75 or a hundred bucks for an n scale diesel seems expensive to me. Hook 2 or 3 of these expensive locos together and there are big bucks riding your rails. My point is this. For the average model railroader running his trains in his basement, who really cares if a locomotive has a plow on the nose or not. For the average modeller won't these cheapies fill the bill 99 percent of the time? I am just trying to keep this manageable as far as expenses are concerned. [ 01. January 2005, 12:35: Message edited by: Stormovic ]
Hey morris. I, like you started N scale with a bunch of bachmann cheapies. they filled up my then Santa Fe roster with a few F9s, an SD40-2, a GP50 and a life-like GP38. They opperated fairly reliably and could deffinatly take a beating. The problem is scale fidelity. They lack major features a lot of us areconcerned with: DCC compatability, compatibility with knuckle couplers, extream slow speed control, photo quality details to name a few. The details are probably the most agravating to a lot of us. We like trains. We like trains so much we log onto forums to talk about the stuff we model, so we are a bit upity at times. If you compare a Bachmann SD40-2 with one from Kato that costs 5 times as much, you see the difference in quality in contruction, painting and details. But isn't that the case with everything? Parking a Kia next to a Porche, you will see the difference in the same areas. So its basically down to what your willing to pay. But there is hope. Life-Like has a ton of stuff that looks and runs as well as the most expensive stuff, but will only cost you 30-50 an engine, less on ebay (i have bought a few for $19). At that price its deffinatly a bargain over the Bachmann stuff (that was deigned in the 60's to begine with). If you scour ebay enough, you can pick up Atlas engines off of overstock for great prices as well (in this case i got several for less then $40 each).
I have always found that good running engines are a dream, while poor - and these days, even average running engines - simply ruin my desire to stay in N Scale, or the hobby. I didn't start in N until Kato/Atlas came out with reliable locos about 1990. For my money, its the running quality first that draws me to a loco, assuming it is a road name that I want. I would prefer one great engine to three average to poor ones any time. Like you, while I do like details, and prefer, but don't demand actual prototype fidelity, those things come in second place when picking my engines. Luckily, with LL, Intermountain and Athearn coming into the fray, we have a choice of many great manufacturers now. That should keep prices down somewhat. As Daniel suggests, perhaps its better to invest in some ebay or other internet outlets, or even find some bargins at trains shows in used locos, rather than using your time in tweaking average runners, rerailing them, etc. Not a loco snob, but my experience is that eventually, you will put the bmann locos on a shelf and replace them. If that is true, why not save up a little and buy the best right away. It could be cheaper in the long run to go with quality for a bit more money.
Dan and Jeff have made good points. Jeff's comments regarding paying a bit more to get a better quality engine is valid. Nothing like poor quality to introduce a frustration that could turn you away from N Scale. Find an Atlas loco for $40 (GP7/9, GP30/35, etc.) and you'll get more than double the satisfaction from it. Hey, Dan, have you ever looked closely at a Porsche's paintwork? I reckon Kia's is better - less orange peel! [ 01. January 2005, 14:45: Message edited by: Gats ]
I have acquired a few cheap dielses second hand. I intend to learn from them. Among other things they can be used: 1) For comparrison to other engines 2) Practice painting 3) Practice detailing 4) Anything you don't want to risk a more expensive engine for. 5) Sometimes they are painted in much brighter colors whitch is better for some visitors.
Just to say how I started, I had a Bachmann F-7 ATSF I had in a kit. I ran it once a year maybe for about eight years, then I built a layout. Then it stopped running, ultimately was scrapped. Then I bought three locos- one CSX LL GP38, one Chessie LL SD7/9, and one Conrail LL GP20. The 38 was ok, better than the Bachmann but still one of my worst, the SD7/9 was excellent, worked like a charm as well as the GP20. I got lots of ballast in these though- the guy at the hobby shop sold me the wrong kind of ballast when I started! Anyways then at a Timonium show maybe 3-4 years ago I went on a LL GP38 rampage. I bought a DH, a BN, a ATSF and a WM(kinda like a 35). I had 60 bucks left and I looked around. I wanted something modern, so I saw a brand new Kato SD80MAC in Conrail. I bought it for my 60$ and ever since then I've run it. It runs flawless, has nice lights and looks stellar. Ever since then I've never bought any Bachmann or even older Lifelike(only SW1200, GP20 or F40PH's). One major advantage with the Atlas, Athearn, Kato and newer LL locos is how they last with time. None of my Bachmanns or old Lifelikes are still running ok. They either are in pieces now or are dummies. You really get what you pay for. I have about 50 locos now, mainly Kato and Atlas and I've spent more than 80 once. It was a brass loco that didnt work out for 110$. I generally spend 40-60 on Atlas and Protos and 60-75 on Katos. If you shop around you can find used Atlas and Kato locos for as low as 30$ if you go to a good show. There are always good deals out there. I found a Southern SD40-2 with a highhood by Kato at a show in Florida. It was only $40, it wa nicely detailed but the paint job was marginal- not bad but ok. I stripped it and painted it into NS. $45 it costs me after paint, details, and decals and it looks and runs great. I'd advise going to a show and looking around.
I have bought some closeout locos off of woo woo woo woo woo woo in the sub $50 range. I also saw a vendor at a train show once claiming he was representing a "damaged in transit" liquidator, and got some Katos in the same range. It smelled like fish, but I bought them anyway. Sometimes I have even traded other stuff for locos, at no current $ out of my pocket. Nice point about using Bachman shells for painting, though. Even a Kato Dash 9 shell costs $35 bucks. Speaking of loco cost, I took the LL GP 60 out of the box today, and checked the parts list, which includes parts cost. Adding those up, the entire loco comes to about $55, which I assume is their price to wholesalers. But, it kind of gives you an idea of where the money goes in a locomotive.
Hey, Stormovic - welcome to N scale, and welcome to Trainboard!! You're in good company: many of us started with Bachmann, and many of use felt like you. Some still do. There's no "right way" - the only thing is to have fun, and for every three guys there's four ways to have fun, so you're in a great place! One of the reasons this is such a great hobby is it consists of many aspects. Some really go for detail modeling their locomotives and/or rolling stock, and we are privileged to have some jaw-dropping modelers who show us their work from time to time... but others simply open a box and run what's in it. Some guys spend hours designing and building huge layouts, with varying degress of detail, while others simply put some track together and run. Some don't even run - they just collect cars and never do a layout. Some just like to go check out real-life trains, modern or steam. Some guys are deeply into model (or real) railroad photography - there are several websites with nothing but train pictures. Some concentrate their modeling on the steam era, some on the steam/diesel era and others on various segments of the modern era. Some (like me) even do multiple eras, simply because there's some really cool stuff out there. As far as budget goes, some have resources we can only dream of, others are in a tight position. But one of the nice things to do, regardless of one's prefence and tastes, is to talk about it - the social side of the hobby. And that's where Trainboard comes in. Some belong to clubs, while others are either not near a club that suits them, or they simply prefer the electronic means of interaction that we have here. Regardless of one's slant, one thing is always true - there's always something new to learn or to improve on... and to talk about! If you're into low-cost Bachmann, there will be occasions where something arises that you want to either vent about or ask questions. That's what we're here for. I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say we've all learned in some way from reading what other modelers have posted here. (And of course the price here is right!! ) We've got guys from Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and various countries in Europe that are part of the Board, each with their own talents and contributions. As you are seeing from the posts above, we're an eclectic bunch, and we don't lack for opinions!! For every three guys there are four opinions, which of course make this part of the hobby fun. You'll see some go to the stake for DCC, while others silently smile at their (displaced?) passion Some swear by Micro-Trains couplers, some swear by Accumates, and others don't care, they simply use whatever works. We've even got the Ford vs. Chevy debates here. Some can talk for hours and others just pipe in now and then. That's all part of the beauty of hobby and what makes Trainboard interesting. Some like Bachmann, some hate them, and some shrug their shoulders. The point is there's no right or wrong, and it's possible to have fun, no matter what your experience or slant in the hobby. It's also great to have places like this to learn from and grow in each of our own interests. It's possible to have fun with Bachmann and without, and it's great to talk about it. So... once again, welcome to Trainboard, and be sure to tell use how Bachmann's working out for you!!
The bottom line will probably come down to this: it's YOUR hobby, not mine or anyone else's. If the Bachman's satisfy your needs, then there's nothing wrong with them. I've had Bachman's before, still have one and will probably get more at some point. There's a lot of people in a lot of hobbies who claim to know the right answer and will loudly shout it out. The great thing about model railroading in general, and N scale in particular, is that most of the folks involved in the hobby aren't anything like this. While I would encourage you to look at Atlas and Kato locomotives, there's no reason you have to if the Bachmans give you the enjoyment you're looking for. Have fun.
Welcome Storm! - I concur with most of the advice above including your statement that YES you can have basic fun with the cheap locos. #1 have fun, play with the Bachmanns and #2 maybe try out an Atlas/Kato just for comparisons sake then go from there. it's your RR. As for cost, you CAN pick some up some good (used) engines on eBay for $20 - I've even picked up 2 for $2 each (yes, I said $2!!!) but then again I spend way too much time on eBay - just ask my wife. [ 01. January 2005, 19:47: Message edited by: nscale_lover ]
Here are some very good qualty cheap locos: LL SD9... tranworld has them for 20 LL GP20.. varous outlets, can be had for as lttle as $25 LL SW1200.. varous outlets, can be had for as lttle as $35 Atlas B23-7... ebay, $35-45 Try lookng at bargan areas of local tran centrc hobby shops, good deals there usally
My budget is severly lacking. Therefore I started out just picking up whatever I could afford. Used Bachman and Lifelike was mainly what I could pick up. I've most definately learned to make do to enjoy this hobby. I don't even care if they run or not. I like to do really heavy modeling so I like stripping down these really poor quality, cheap locos and seeing if I can get them to run if they don't. Once I get them running, when I can, I add any details or paintjobs I wish. Now my fleet numbers around 50-55 locos with Bachmann and Lifelike as the backbone. I've been very pleased with what I've done and have had hundreds of hours of fun and challenge both. My best friend buys mainly used Kato and Atlas and runs them straight outa the box (except when he lets me superdetail and paint them). He's not into doing the kind of work I do but he sure has an appreciation for it. His collection of 85-90 locos is 90% Kato or Atlas. When we get together and run his small layout, we both have great fun despite the difference. I've been able to get my cheap crappy stuff to run reliably and had fun doing it and now run my stuff with his awesome quality locos with no problems!!! Again, all in fun!! As the posts above indicate, it takes all kinds and we have em all here! Its great!! Go for what you like and have fun!
I agree with Eagle. It is YOUR layout. If the $20 engine floats your boat and you enjoy its running, go for it.
If you want to save money go with Life like. But if you want to see something amazing go with Atlas or Kato diesels. Bachmann engines run too fast for one thing.
In my past life I had a Bachmann GP40 and SD40-2 (old version). They ran fine and I was very happy with them, and I was young and poor so Katos were not an option. I did, however, have a Life Like F40PH in Caltrain paint that ran great (better than the bachmanns) and an alco FA-2 in BN by Model Power that was also a great runner. None of these cost more than $30. The best running bargain I think is the Life Like sd7 or GP20 from ebay, which can be bought for around $30. They honestly run as well as a kato in my experience, and are only slightly louder (still quieter and much smoother than a base model bachmann). [ 02. January 2005, 04:56: Message edited by: Fluid Dynamics ]
Stormovic, Fortuanately for you, and many others that have started in N scale over the past five years, there is almost no current product that is totally junk. So... if price is an object... as it is for many... low cost locos will provide satisfactory results. Sometimes you'll find some great ones for less than $20.00 too (LL GP20's). BUT... beware... the experiences of many long time N scalers will tell you that all was not so great years ago. From my experience of having entered N scale about 22 years ago... beware of the low cost alternatives when it comes to 'motive' power. Usually there is something lacking in them. While I can't say thats the case for everything nowadays in N scale... years ago it was almost the gospel. As Jeff pointed out... some of the "J"class (junk class) stuff was available for many years and probably turned away many potential N scalers from the 70's thru the 80's. Low cost was definately low performance.. or even... no performance. Most of the manufacturers today have raised the bar on both prototype fidelity and performance to a point where even the entry level locomotives perform well enough to keep newbies in the hobby. You have to weigh the options of added detail... better running quality and perhaps endurance into the decision of buying your model railroad items provided there is a competitive alternative. What I mean is... if you want an SD45 for your roster... Kato made one several years ago but is hard to find. ConCor made one in the 1970's which is "J" class and Bachmann released a Spectrum version about a year ago which is still available. There is about a $20 difference in the price of the Kato & Bachmann... but... you might not find the more expensive Kato engine unless it is being auctioned on Ebay... or worse... someone is trying to sell one of the ConCor "junkers" for a fortune on Ebay. I have the Kato version of the SD45 and only wish Kato would re-release more of them. I haven't tried the Bachmann Spectrum version... but have heard GOOD reviews of it.... something that was unheard of twenty years ago about Bachmann. Be careful of the older stuff that may be "pushed" at a remarkably low price... get advise if you think it's "too good to be true"... cause it may be a junker. Unless you are a good "tinkerer" of small model trains... and don't mind getting an engine that is DOA (dead on arrival) stay away from the OLD Bachmann, Lifelike, Model Power, PMI, Lima stuff for sure. Other items that might be usable but troublesome are the Arnold/Rapido engines with the oversized flanges. Other than that... if you don't mind a bit less detail... maybe the size is a little off scale... or the contours of "nose" on an E or F unit is a little off.... these lower cost engines will provide the enjoyment of the hobby without 'breaking the bank'.
Hi Stormovic, I started in N scale just before the Atlas/Kato engines came into being. I bought a Trix Pacific that ran well ( still does!) and then a Bachmann Mikado. The Mikado's performance almost soured me on the whole N-scale thing. Then I tried Con-Cor and Model Power diesels and the performance was a bit better. Then I got one of the new Atlas BN RS-11's, and it ran like a dream. But I wanted Western Pacific and had to try to get some GP40s. Bachmann came out with a new mechanism, so I bought two undecs and did my first custom paint on these for Silver and Orange. They were very noisy but ran great! I knew I had to change the handrails, so bought some brass handrail kits to retrofit on them. But I never got to it. I ran them until the nephews zoomed them off the layout onto the concrete floor from 52" up. The GP40's were damaged beyond repair. Afterwards, I turned to BN because there was ready to run equipment Kato GP38's that ran even better than the Atlas RS-11!. But I knew then that if I had to, I could have GP40s that would be acceptable to me. That mechanism is probably the one you're running now. I thank Bachmann for those hours of enjoyment provided at low cost at a time when there wasn't much alternative.
i had a bad experence with a bachmann chepo loco. it was running fine then it stoped and started smoking. i couldnt find the problem. since that, it left a bad tast in my mouth. i bought a used loco for $40. it is a atlas gp7. its back in the shop getting a dcc decoder in it. it is a great loco. i am suprised by how slow my loco goes. i got it down to about 3.5 scale mph. WOW i cant wait to see if the speed changes with the new decoder. ya the price tags are BIG, but the atlas and kato locos are worth the money. honostly, think if its in scale is a big thing. everything looks much better when it is in scale and in higher detail. you get what u pay for. the more expensive locos run better too. theres my 2 cents
