When did MTL start body mounting freight cars?

Nick Lorusso Jun 10, 2020

  1. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

    9,511
    5,673
    147
    Normally I'd let this slide. But and you'll understand why. No offense intended.

    Hardly! The peddler freight, isn't gone. Oh, what we remember of the stove and caboose is gone. Today, the railroads have to collect the freight from various industries. They still operate as locals/turns and are still working the rails as switch jobs.

    You need to go sit track side and note the switching action you can see.

    The railroads today collect their freights from various industries, canning companies, automotive plants, lumber companies, paper mills (just to name a few). Of course imported goods coming in from the orient. Containers, Inter-modal, piggy back, flat cars, bare-tables with or without loads, gondolas w/steel loads, reefers and box cars are still in demand. They may have changed the make-up of a "Peddler freight" and how it works but they are still alive in what they call locals and turns. I think I already said that. Yep, I did.

    Here in Nampa, Idaho the freight trains pull in break-up the train and switch 20 to 30+ cars at one time. Making reverse moves pushing and shoving 20 to 30+ freight cars off the main, to either drop cars and/or pick-up WB or EB freight traffic. There is a short rail line in town that serves the old UP line to Boise, ID. They deliver and pick-ups freight loads, in and out of a number of industries between Nampa and Boise, ID. There is a UP short line local that works out of Nampa going east toward Boise, to work several industries. A sugar plant in town is served by a UP local. Caldwell is served by a number of spur tracks to meat packing plants and lumber yards and more.

    Same can be said out of Victorville, Ca. There's a Turn that runs WB (compass south) from Victorville, to Hesperia and then out to Mitsubishi Cement Company, in Lucerne Valley, CA. A local also leaves Victorville, Ca. EB to work two cement plants east of Victorville. Out of Barstow, Ca. EB is what is known as the Cadiz Turn. WB a Turn that works the George AFB, and the Borax plant. Continuing onto Bakersfield, dropping off and picking up freight traffic at Mojave and working cement plants in the area. In Bakersfield, it may work and pick-up what reefers are still being used... from packing houses and expediting them back to Barstow, CA. to be classified EB or WB into appropriate trains.

    On many small home layouts these type's of operations are still being duplicated. Hours spent with a water train that has to deliver water to a small city that doesn't have it's own well. Pick-up the empty tank cars and get them back to the source of water. Fruit packing houses that need to be serviced with empties delivered and full loads picked-up. Passenger trains that have to run on time causing the locals and through freights to scatter and find a siding to hide in. If you think that isn't fun, you haven't experienced it.

    Like I said, it's a choice thing. Justify anything you do or want to do, anyway you want. But do it. See signature.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  2. Inkaneer

    Inkaneer TrainBoard Member

    4,325
    1,424
    77
    The big roads sold off their unprofitable branch lines to smaller regional roads. Unless an industry was located on their main line or an industry generated enough traffic to financially justify servicing it the big roads didn't want to be bothered. A lot of industries had to resort to trucking in and out because the RR's deemed it was unprofitable to serve them. Ton miles, baby, ton miles; that is the game today.
     
  3. DCESharkman

    DCESharkman TrainBoard Member

    4,396
    3,025
    87
    As someone who runs what ever the heck I want to run, body mounted or truck mounted makes no difference. I am not about to convert several thousand cars with body mounts, it is difficult enough to get the FVM metal wheels as it is. I am not impacted by sharp curves, my mainline turnouts are #12 or #14, mainline sidings are #10 and the smallest yard turnouts are #8's. I do have smaller turnouts on branch line and industry tracks that do local switching using small switchers. I have yet to see any issues. I do not back up large consists of cars so the truck mounts are not a problem. My only issue is under weight cars as either truck mounted couplers or body mounted couplers.
     
    mtntrainman likes this.
  4. Traindork

    Traindork TrainBoard Member

    1,299
    393
    35
    I work for a western class 1 railroad and the days of the local freight would come to an end if they had their way. Sometimes it seems that they're purposefully pushing those customers away. Big unit trains is where the money is.
     
    Nick Lorusso likes this.
  5. Rich_S

    Rich_S TrainBoard Member

    838
    1,618
    34
    Sadly this is true. If they could get away with it and not cause the trains to be late, they'd have the road trains deliver the cars to the local industries. Sadly thanks to PSR, now a train is just a train and operations employees are encouraged to place general freight cars in intermodal trains for forwarding to the next yard instead of having those cars wait for the scheduled freight train that runs between those two yards. The face of railroading is changing and in my opinion not for the better.
     
  6. Inkaneer

    Inkaneer TrainBoard Member

    4,325
    1,424
    77
    On July 5th and 25th NS learned that you can't place empty center beam flat cars at the headend of a train then try to run the train upgrade around a curve without it derailing. Happened 2 times in three weeks on Horseshoe Curve. Those center beam cars were being pulled not pushed and had body mounted couplers. Maybe weight is more of a determining factor than where the coupler is mounted.
     
    Rich_S likes this.
  7. bill pearce

    bill pearce TrainBoard Member

    619
    264
    18
    This has nothing to do with the body/truck mount discussion, it has everything to do with poor training and supervision as corporations press on to reduce costs by not training and growing a strong productive workforce. It's like a major aircraft manufacturer who cant take the time and trouble to train their workers to not leave trash and tools in fuselages.

    There was a day when no self respecting railroader would have put empty lightweight cars at the head of a train because they all understood stringlining. But I do respect your ability to turn things to make your point.
     
    SecretWeapon likes this.
  8. BigJake

    BigJake TrainBoard Member

    3,259
    6,172
    70
    Different subject, but it takes much more than just training the assemblers to avoid Foreign Object Debris/Damage. It takes commitment from engineering, manufacturing and facilities to eliminate FOD.

    I was a design engineer for 34 years for a major defense contractor competitor of that "major aircraft manufacturer," and we had annual, required, intensive training, starting before 1986, and not just in assembly procedures, but also engineering, manufacturing, packaging/shipping, and maintenance processes to avoid and/or eliminate FOD. It is a systemic problem, requiring a systemic solution. The fact that a major manufacturer cannot figure that out is damning, as is their approach to safety critical software development, analysis and testing for manned spacecraft, and who knows what else.

    Sorry for the interruption... we now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.
     
  9. Rich_S

    Rich_S TrainBoard Member

    838
    1,618
    34
    There has also been some stringlining due to empties placed in the center of the train with trailing loads. Now thanks to PSR (Precision Scheduled Railroading), you have two trains that are now combined into one. Since I work on the mechanical side of the railroad, I'm not 100% up to speed on what goes on, on the transportation side of the house, but I believe trains are blocked for destination without any regard to loads and empties.
     
  10. TrinityJay

    TrinityJay TrainBoard Member

    28
    59
    2
    With the exception of some Atlas 85' trash (the load, not the quality) flatcars, I don't have any cars with body mounted couplers. I did at one stage have 30 InterMountain boxcars with body mounted couplers, and fought on-and-off for 2yrs~ trying to get them running properly. No matter the track, the coupling order, the length of or placement within a train, without fail roughly 1/4 of any rake of them would derail over any given point or crossing. Wheel gauge seemed fine, so I tried different pins, various shims to reduce roll, screwing the trucks on, more weight, less weight; nothing worked. Everyone I brought it up with pointed the finger of blame at the track, but this was on well-laid Peco stock that no other train ever had issues with.

    Eventually I'd had enough, so cut my losses and blew $130+ to refit them all with standard MT Bettendorfs w/ coupler and have never had an issue since. The silver lining is that I now have more spare 1015-1s than I will likely ever need.

    Regarding reversing difficulties, I've backed up some pretty long trains in my time and only ever had issues with cars that are simply too light (eg- empty Difco dump car) and/or if I'm trying to do something silly like back 50+ cars up a 2.5% grade with a corner mid-way and a shallow diamond at the foot of the incline. If you're sensible about it, and travel at an appropriate speed, it's far from the guaranteed disaster that so many make it out to be.
     
    mtntrainman, NorsemanJack and MK like this.
  11. Traindork

    Traindork TrainBoard Member

    1,299
    393
    35
    Sorry, can't blame the crew. Railroads have rules about placement of cars in the train. On the railroad I work at, you can't set a train on the computer if there's a placement error. Lately, in the interest of speeding things up per PSR, lots of those placement rules have been relaxed, along with a whole bunch of other safety rules.
     
    Rich_S, MK and mtntrainman like this.
  12. Rich_S

    Rich_S TrainBoard Member

    838
    1,618
    34
    Amen to that. I constantly tell our foreman and Senior General foreman, if safety was really that important it would not appear on the bottom of core values list, it would be at the top of the list. You now know what's important to the railroads because those statements appear at the top of the list, "managing assets" and "reducing cost". PSR has nothing to do with serving customers and is only about reducing the operating ratio at the expense of employees and customers, PSR only serve the "stake holders".

    OK, I'm now climbing down off my soap box.
     
    mtntrainman likes this.
  13. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

    9,511
    5,673
    147
    Caught the Nampa Local pulling back into town. Grain cars, tank cars and wood cars, proving once again the locals are still at work collecting and delivering freight to industries served by the Union Pacific Railroad. The guys and gals out of Barstow and Victorville confirm those locals (I mentioned earlier) are still hard at work.

    You can't just wait for the freight to come to you and freight doesn't appear out of nowhere.

    Set there eating a Cheese Casa-dea (oop's on spelling) and sipping down a Diet Dr. Pepper while getting my Railroad Fix.

    Railroads haven't given up the paying freight shippers. They are still serving them. Its the rail lines where they were loosing money, that have been leased to local short lines or abandoned all together.

    Oh and getting back to the issue of truck mounted versus body mounted. I went down to the Nampa Union Pacific yard and tried to spot any freight cars with truck mounted couplers. Not a one. Not at all. Hummm!!

    We play with the truck mounted couplers "Because of our marriage to..." (I like the way that was put earlier sorry author escapes me, got it Inkaneer said that) "Tight radius curves". We found them more useful. Until the trouble started.

    As I set and reflect on my Toy Train to Model Railroading past the truck mounted couplers spelled operational problems, as in derailments on literally every reverse move through #4 switches. It used to drive me nuts until a visit to a model railroad club in the San Francisco Bay Area. Here as a kid, I rubbed shoulders with some of the best in Model Railroading (not toy trains, that was what i was doing). I wanted to go back to visit again but my birth dad didn't have time and I never got to do that again.

    If all you do is drag your trains around your layout and never make a reverse switching move it isn't likely you'll have a problem. Of course track work is a big factor and to have operations, you need the best switches, track-work and running gear.

    Whatever! Your choice! Do have fun with your interpretation of trains and how you operate them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  14. NorsemanJack

    NorsemanJack TrainBoard Member

    2,264
    946
    51
    Since Rick bumped this thread back to life......

    I would still like to see a before/after photo as described above to fully understand what MTL has done to/for us. :sneaky: WRT spacing, it would also be nice to see two similar model truck mounted coupled together versus two revised body mounted coupled together.
     
    BarstowRick likes this.
  15. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

    9,511
    5,673
    147
    Norseman Jack, Hello !!

    Sorry, I'm not set-up right now to take pictures to illustrate such. However I do have a video that might help. Give me a minute to find it.

    This is my layout as built in a tin shed, Big Bear Country, CA.

    The second picture in shows five flat cars. Each of these have body mounted couplers. Flat Cars! I've never had such luck running flat cars on any of my HO, S Scale, O Scale, and lastly N scale layouts. To my surprise, I can place them at the head of the train, in the middle and of course where most guys and gals run them at the end. String-ling, derailments due to tight radius curves, being the issue.

    These are the original Kadee/N Scale trucks and knuckle couplers. They perform very well.

    Well here take a look. A video slideshow.



    Going back to Nick Lorusso's, posted picture of two MTL body mounted cars.

    [​IMG]

    Since then I've switched out a number of my freight cars and can operate one or two 30+ car freights over this layout. Note the grades. Note also the minimum radius on the main lines is 15". Several curves sport 24" radius. Picture perfect curves for N scale.

    That's as close as I'm going to get for now.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
    Metro Red Line likes this.
  16. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

    9,511
    5,673
    147
    Do I dare say since you asked?

    My hypocrisy only goes so far.

    The next video slideshow, shows a homemade grain elevator with a number of grain cars in the picture. This is the work of Greg McGinnis, a gift. You know I had to get it in on my layout.

    Question how to you put body mounted couplers on these grain cars? You don't unless you know how to skillfully put in a base to attach them to. So, how did I solve the problem? I didn't. I put pizza cutter wheel-sets on these cars in hopes they will/would track better in a reverse move. Goes against everything I believe-in but check it out.



    You can see where I added MTL trucks with truck mounted couplers.
    Oh, and I didn't solve the problem of making a reverse move without jackknifing and subsequent derailments.
    You might also note the #4 Peco switches... I used. Harrumph. Aiiyiiyii.

    The layout is currently sitting in a wood shed being prepped to come in doors to be reassembled and restored. This scene will be enlarged to accommodate #6 Peco switches. Further reports will be forth coming on a new thread.

    Does that help?
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  17. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

    9,511
    5,673
    147
    Again with my hypocrisy.

    Some things just don't always work out.
    My goals are listed below.

    Believe me when I say: Or not!
    "Wide curves are the best curves."
    "Body Mounted couplers are the best mounted"
    "#6 Switches or bigger are the best switches."
    Okay with that said confession time.

    Here is a video Courtesy of John Acosta. The Howland and Pacific Railroad, Mail Trains.
    You may have to bump the pixels up to 480 before it clears.



    In the first part you will hear a click, that's me "Clearing the block ahead," for cab A, by "Throwing a toggle". Then I let you know what I think of everything!

    You will note the middle wheel on a three axle, Heavy Weight Observation Car is missing. Yes, it is and that's when I tried to Get Away With tight radius curves.

    You won't find any body mounted couplers on most of these passenger cars. The only cars that have a body mounted coupler is the rear observation cars.

    Yes, I have problems making reverse moves as they will jack knife and derail. One of the reasons I run them for the most part as solid sets or to make some of you happy "Unit trains". "Solid consists," would be correct.

    Run through yards or hidden staging yards work best for these kinds of operations. I'll give you that "Tip" for free.

    The silver trucks on the REA car? A prototype error. The prototype police wrote me up for that one bringing my attention to it. It now sports black trucks.

    The Santa Fe mail train in the first part of the video, is coming through a mixed helixi. The two tracks on the outside is the main. The two tracks on the inside is the coal district. Made to give the illusion of unit coal trains, empty arriving at the coal mine and loaded trains departing. Cool concept and works well with the tighter radius curves and short coal cars. No body mounted couplers in those unit trains either. I hang my head in shame.

    That's my two cents for now. I know not quite what Norseman Jack was looking for. Someone else is going to have to jump in here.

    Spacing between passenger cars should be close while freight cars and different types or modern coupling housings are wider. Some coupler housings stick out from the freight car. The poor N scale brakeman won't be able to jump across. Get yourself some books on freight car construction they include the modifications and distance of how far the knuckle coupler overhangs. I know buy a book. Right there with you.

    Later!
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  18. NorsemanJack

    NorsemanJack TrainBoard Member

    2,264
    946
    51
    Really?? I'll try to be more clear. I would like to see a photo of two MT 40' steel boxcars with truck mounted couplers coupled together and a second photo with two recent MT 40' steel boxcars with the "improved" body mounts coupled together. Is that still not clear? I just want to see if they really added a mile of spacing between the coupled cars as the price of admission into body-mount-land (not affiliated with the Magic Kingdom).
     
  19. bremner

    bremner Staff Member

    6,266
    6,246
    106
    So would I
     
  20. tonkphilip

    tonkphilip TrainBoard Member

    244
    306
    18
    Jack, Here are some pictures of the old height boxcars with trunk-mount and the new lowered box cars with body-mount.
     

    Attached Files:

Share This Page