combining DCC and DC in same layout?

S t e f a n Sep 25, 2020

  1. S t e f a n

    S t e f a n TrainBoard Member

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    I wasn't sure whether to post this here or on the DCC forum, but since I am rebuilding my layout, I picked this forum:
    What are your experiences with combining DCC and DC on the same layout?

    I'm in N scale, and I have two DCC Kato E9 engines for a UP 'City of' train, and a whole bunch (20?) of DC locomotives. I'm still trying to figure out whether it will be feasible to convert most of them (they are all pre-2010, and many pre-2000, N scale as I said, so not necessarily DCC conversion friendly), but in the meantime I would like to run both types of engines.

    I'm thinking of building a separate outer loop for the DCC passenger train, and the rest of the layout connected to the DC throttle. For turnout control etc. I'm thinking of connecting several Arduinos (for sensing and for switching/signals) to a computer running JMRI, with the hope that this would work both for DC now and also after the conversion (if it happens) to DCC. I.e. no stationary decoders attached to DCC.

    What are the experiences here with combining DC and DCC? Is preserving DC operation while converting to DCC a viable path? I already found one post with the DCC engines making a lot of smoke...
     
  2. Donstaff

    Donstaff TrainBoard Member

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    Stefann,
    First of all, you said that you are in N scale, but what stage of construction are you in? Do you have any of the layout built yet?
     
  3. wvgca

    wvgca TrainBoard Member

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    it can work, a selector switch with a center off would be best, or you can run the two seperate with no joining ....
    a dcc auto reverse unit will -most likely- not work under dc
     
  4. Mr. Trainiac

    Mr. Trainiac TrainBoard Member

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    I have also used a selector switch to toggle between power sources. It might be difficult to do for a huge layout, but for a small single block DC layout, it is definitely possible to switch between them. That way you can run your DCC locomotives and then switch back to DC. Of course, you would need a place to park your DC locomotives and be able to cut the power to them (isolated yard tracks maybe?)
     
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  5. S t e f a n

    S t e f a n TrainBoard Member

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    Thanks for all the replies! So it's not completely crazy, and has been done.

    The layout was an unfinished L shaped single loop + roundhouse, 8' + 8' size, that unfortunately disintegrated (became 'modular') when I tried to relocate it to get a bit more clearance above my desk. I already ordered some foam board for the replacement bench work (see separate thread). I will try to keep the roundhouse section and (inner) turnaround loop that was already ballasted and somewhat scenicked. That section was built on a 2" strong box beam made from 1/2" foam core (poster) board; maybe I can strip off the top foam core layer with the track, and cut a hole for the turntable into the new 2" polyiso foam board. The turn table (Fleischmann, with built-in power switching) tracks seem a good place to park locomotives, unfortunately the roundhouse has just six stalls plus two 'garden' tracks, but I guess I don't have to keep all locomotives on the layout all the time.;) On the other hand, I could add more tracks to the turn table while rebuilding.:unsure:

    I'm thinking of going to a double 'mainline' loop around the rebuilt L, with the outer loop and a siding switchable to DCC. I just did an inventory of my engines, and I do have third DCC locomotive, a Kato GS-4. The other 22 are DC, and it's doubtful that all of them could be converted. In any case it would take me a long time, so I think there will be some DC component for several years. Another option would be to give up on DCC, and just use JMRI to switch DC blocks; I assume that should be possible? But I kind of like the sound option that DCC offers.

    TL;DR: restarting on layout; tons of DC locos, plus a few DCC.
     
  6. Mo-Pac

    Mo-Pac TrainBoard Member

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    All you need is a Digitrax DCS52 this will run both your DCC and DC locomotives. If you have two different tracks that are isolated you can run both at the same time with this controller.
     
  7. traingeekboy

    traingeekboy TrainBoard Member

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    Late to the party...

    It depends on what the extent is that you desire for this. As others mentioned you can use address 0 to power analog locos.

    You can also have a double pole double throw switch to use one or the other kinds of power. DPDT's are pretty standard fare at an electronics store. I buy them off of ebay.

    What you do not want is loco wheels passing over any connecting track that could cause the DC and DCC to get crossed. Your best bet is to do one or the other.

    Sounds like you have about 22 non DCC locos. Decoders have gotten cheaper, but not quite cheap enough to make converting that whole fleet cheap. Assuming cost is an issue, with the need to have isolated blocks for DC, you'll spend a bit with controls and wiring there. If you do DCC you'll spend a bit with a control system there. Trying to do both means doubling your costs.

    Is it that you want to convert to DCC, or that you have some locos that are DCC?
     
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  8. S t e f a n

    S t e f a n TrainBoard Member

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    TGB, both. I have a few DCC engines, I do like the sound aspect of DCC, and I like the 'playing with electronics' aspect as well. I'm hoping that the electronics aspect will help keeping me motivated to actually finish a layout for almost the first time in fifty years (I think I had one that one could consider finished in all that time).
     
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  9. BNSF FAN

    BNSF FAN TrainBoard Supporter

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    While I don't ever plan to run both DCC and DC at the same time, I have set my layout up to switch between the two. I have heard that the regular toggles that have a center off work but that there could be a possibility of bleed through of power or signal. Fellow TrainBoard member and N scaler Jason runs RPC Electronics and they make a switch specifically designed to deal with switching between DCC and DC power to the layout. I have one on my layout and it seems to be performing as expected. Here is a link to his page

    www.rpc-electronics.com

    and the specific item.

    http://www.rpc-electronics.com/dcdccswitch.php

    and finally, a not so great shot of it installed on my layout.

    switch.JPG
     
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  10. Hardcoaler

    Hardcoaler TrainBoard Member

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    Your post sums it all up well and it's what I have planned. I did a lot of testing and it all seems to be fine. Even wired in a reverse loop (didn't need an automatic one on my modestly-sized road) and it works well too. Just for the fun of it, I added LEDs as an extra indication of the mode of operation.

    2019-10-26 Reverse Loop Testing - for upload.jpg

    I've been in N Scale a long, long time and am perfectly content to leave my DC locomotives DC and add new DCC locomotives as I want.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
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  11. Sumner

    Sumner TrainBoard Member

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    I'd start by picking up a couple cheap non-sound decoders, DZ123 ($16), DZ126T ($24) depending on how small you need to go for the install or something comparable. I picked up some Lais for $12 but they seem to be unavailable now with Covid. Install them and see how you like doing that. After a few I think you will find you can do one in a couple hours time. I picked up over 40 older loco's (same time period as what you seem to have) and I'am plugging away now and then converting them.

    Your not going to want sound in all of them probably so for about $400 you could at least get reasonable decoders in most all and maybe look for sound or ones with possibly better motor control for a few. For what I've been doing the 123 and 126 have worked great for the hard-wired installs and for ones that will take a drop-in decoder I'm finding those for under $30. You can have DCC++ up and running with a dedicated train room computer running JMRI for another $100. For $500-$600 you could have DCC, wireless phone throttles and most of your loco's converted. You wouldn't have to spend all of that at once. $150-$200 would have you running DCC and about 5-7 locos converted.

    Trying to run both I feel might cost more. As you are working on the layout do a decoder install now and then. It's what I've been doing. Breaks things up.

    I have installs on my site and the same for others here and this site is what got me into doing it ....

    http://n-scale-dcc.blogspot.com/

    Good luck,

    Sumner
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
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  12. S t e f a n

    S t e f a n TrainBoard Member

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    Thanks for all the advice, everybody.

    I still have to check my other thread specifically about decoders, but maybe I'll get a few of the cheaper non-sound ones, and perhaps also one of the ESU Loksound micro's, and see what fits where.

    Hardcoaler, that's a lot of switches you have there. Are these homebuilt panels, or commercial?
     
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  13. Hardcoaler

    Hardcoaler TrainBoard Member

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    Homebuilt and sized to fit a limited space. The control panel has turnouts on one side and blocks on the other.
     
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  14. BigJake

    BigJake TrainBoard Member

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    Wait... do you mean that some folks actually finish layouts?!
     
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  15. jdetray

    jdetray TrainBoard Member

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    To help you determine if a particular older N-scale DC locomotive can be easily converted to DCC, Spookshow's N-Scale Locomotive Encyclopedia can be helpful. Mark lists the DCC readiness for many of the more than 600 N-scale locos in the Encyclopedia.

    - Jeff
     

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