Hollow Core Door Layout questions

Dave McDonald Oct 13, 2021

  1. Dave McDonald

    Dave McDonald TrainBoard Member

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    I have decided to not use a hollow core door but rather a 2" thick piece of the pink foam and make a frame with 1 x 5 and 1 x 3. I will glue & fasten the 1 X 3 on the inside of i 1 x 5 and then sit the foam on the top of that. Saves the weight of the door and allows me to hide the wiring underneath.
     
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  2. Grey One

    Grey One TrainBoard Supporter

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    That is the most flexible and likely least expensive.
    Have fun!
     
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  3. BigJake

    BigJake TrainBoard Member

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    I'd add some 1x3 cross-members to support the middle of the foam board. By the time you add terrain, trackage, scenery and trains, a 36" span is a lot to ask of 2" thick foam without some sagging.

    I like the access to underside wiring, yet with some protection via the side rails and cross members should you have to move it, though I guess the same could be accomplished if the side trim boards extend below the bottom of an HCD somewhat.

    If you have access to a table saw (and a helper), equivalent strips ripped from cabinet grade 1/2" hardwood plywood (not sheathing, etc.) will be plenty strong, straighter and more stable (against warpage) than soft wood lumber from the big box stores. 1/2" ply will be lighter, and still offer plenty of strength, but the joints may need some blocking for reinforcement. You could join the cross members directly to the outer (taller) rim boards, and then fill the gaps around the inside of the rim boards with 1/2" ply strips to support both the foam and the joints between cross-members and rim boards.
     
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  4. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    I agree with some random cross braces under the foam for the support. Even two inch thick dense pink foam will eventually develop a slight sag.
     
  5. Grey One

    Grey One TrainBoard Supporter

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    Oh, If possible try to make your maximum reach at most 30"s unless you can get all the way eround it. I made that mistake twice, (I'm a slow learner).
     
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  6. MK

    MK TrainBoard Member

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    Good move! I did the same with 2" pink foam. This portable mini-layout is 3.5' x 5' just to give you an idea of cross members that others have suggested.

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  7. BigJake

    BigJake TrainBoard Member

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    The distance you can reach depends on your build, and on the height of the layout. Table height (30") is better for most than counter height (36") so you can bend over it better. I'm 5'10" with 3XLT shirt size, and can reach the back side of a 36" deep layout (table height) to retrieve errant rolling stock, but not to build anything, scenery or extended activities like that. So a 36" deep layout has to be able to be moved away from the wall for access to do those things, but not every-day running.

    It helps if you don't have fragile stuff at the very front edge, when reaching all the way to the back!

    Top-side creepers are also a good remedy for working on deep layouts from the front.
     
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  8. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    When I built the current layout I used 36 inch wide HC doors. However I designated the back six inches for scenery. Also with my tight curves I was able to bring the tracks to within an inch of the front. A fascia board extends approximately 1 inch in height all around the sides of the layout so there is no chance of a loco or cars taking a nose dive. My layout is supported by base cabinet units bringing the layout to approximately 34.5 inches above the floor that allows me to roll a chair up to the layout.
     
  9. Grey One

    Grey One TrainBoard Supporter

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    I never thought of that. Thanks! I'll keep it in mind for '...the next one..." ☻
     
  10. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    Since I had a stroke a few years ago I had to revamp a lot of my plans. One of them included being able to sit in a chair and operate my layout. I also worked out my reach by measuring when up next to one while seated. I also measured my kitchen counter height and used that as a guide.Keeping the standing reach also at 30 inches or less lessen the strain on the back.
     
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  11. Hardcoaler

    Hardcoaler TrainBoard Member

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    You worked out the same details as I did on my new layout. I put a lot of thought into access. My (N Scale) layout is 41-1/2" high and my comfortable reach is 28", but like you, I can reasonably reach the HCD backside of 36" to pick up a derailed car. My layout is on casters, so I can pull it away from the wall for better access back there.
     
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  12. Grey One

    Grey One TrainBoard Supporter

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    Curretnly the layout 24" deep. Reach / access on '...the next one...' will be a priority in the design. In theory I start over in 2 years.
     
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  13. Ron Petrich

    Ron Petrich TrainBoard Member

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    This is a great thread for a newbie like me. New in the sense that I haven't modeled for about 30 years (HO back then) as work, family, and other priorities inevitably got in the way. Now retired, my spouse and I run an empty nest, and I have a whole 1.5 car garage to do with as I please. I admit I have to share it with my Miata, workbench/tools, and everything else relegated by my boss (ie spouse) to outside of the house. So space is still somewhat limited. But I think I have come up with a reasonably elegant solution. And I'm inspired by the creativity of many of the members of this forum and, in this case, Hardcoaler has given me some great ideas.

    My initial layout will be built on a 36x80 HCD slab. all Kato Unitrack. I'll attach removable legs with swivel casters so I can access all 4 sides of the layout. When not being worked on/operated, I plan to attach/hinge it to a side wall of my garage using a 4" deep frame and lift off hinges, so I can keep it out of the way. My concern here is 4" deep enough for scenery. Wiring will all be under the HCD, and Hardcoaler's use of a facia on 3 sides should be enough to hide/protect it. I'll use 1/4" x3.75" MDF bender board. If I need more protection, I suppose a sheet of 1/4" MDF can be added later. HD just happens to sell it in 36.5 x 84" size, so very little trimming necessary. I also like Hardcoaler's idea of wiring for DC with the option of upgrading to DCC down the road. I admit that I know very little about DCC but plan to read and do as much research as I can.

    I plan to model this layout loosely after the Kato Manning Oaks #4417 on their website, all West coast freight (UP, SF, some unique Northern central valley roads). Should I buy the diesels already prepped with DCC boards? I would think so. I don't want to bite off more than I can chew, so I have not given any consideration to elevation changes or mountain scenery at this point. I plan to take the whole build rather slowly (my garage is not heated and it does get chilly even in Sacramento in the winter). But part of the fascination/joy/reward/pleasure of this hobby is doing the research, talking to others, planning, changing gears, and actually doing.

    I'll try to report back when I have something to actually show for all the ideas in my head. Thanks for listening.

    Ron in Sacramento
     
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  14. BigJake

    BigJake TrainBoard Member

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    Welcome aboard, Ron!

    Hollow core door layouts are often good candidates for hinging from a wall, to be stowed up against the wall when not in use. I have even seen layouts on pre-hung HCDs, with the door frame mounted to the wall, and the door "closed" up against the wall, or "open" (hinges on the bottom side of door frame) for use.

    I have a 36" HCD which has hosted a few different layouts over the years. I can reach across to the rear edge to retrieve a wayward loco or railcar, but that's about it. I most often could not re-rail them back there. Working on scenery back there while up against the wall would be next to impossible. It would be advisable to remotely control the switches back there. Others have suggested that a 36" deep layout is fine up against the wall, if you reserve the back 6" for scenery only.

    I've always liked the Manning Oaks plan, but it is really designed to be viewed and operated from both sides (note the suggested "scenic block" diagonally down the middle). You might be able to lay the tracks closer to one side (the one to be away from the wall), and get by, but the scenic block would have to go.

    However, depending on the length of locomotives and railcars you want to run, they may not look (or perhaps even work) very well on Manning Oaks' innermost curves. The worst part, from an operability point of view, will be the abrupt transition from straight track directly into the 11" radius 180 degree curve. 1:1 railroads "ease" entrances to, and exits from, curves by gradually increasing the radius approaching the straight track. With sectional track, you can do something similar by substituting a larger radius section for just the first and last sections of those curves (e.g. 12.375R) without adding that much to the total width of the 180 curve. Just be sure to pair up the same radius on the entry and outlet of the 180 curve, and the outer track pieces adjacent to the increased inner curves would be one size larger (e.g. 13.75R) You would also have to play with the outer siding.

    It is a lot easier and more reliable to try these changes in a track planning application than with the actual track pieces, especially since it is possible to "fudge" things to fit with the real track that will cause operability problems once you run trains on them. I use XTrackCAD, which is free, and includes almost the entire Unitrack N scale sectional track catalog. They have a user group on groups.io. There are other track planning applications as well, for both fee and free.

    In XTrackCAD, I was able to ease all three curves on the right end. The double track curves are now (inner) 12.375R45, 11R45x2, 12.375R45; (outer) 13.75R45, 12.375R45x2, 13.75R45. The siding around the right end, from the diverging routes of the #6 switches, is now 19R15, 15R30, 13.75R45, 15R30, 13.75R45, 15R30, 19R15. Naturally, the two inner curves around the left end will have to be adjusted likewise.

    Keep in mind that your reach can come in from the ends of the layout as well (unless the layout will be in the corner of the garage.) So, instead of a 6" buffer across the entire length on the back side, you really only need a 6" x 20" buffer in the middle of the back side to avoid exceeding 30" reach from front or ends. Both the original layout (slid forward a bit) and the eased-curves version allow this.
     
  15. BigJake

    BigJake TrainBoard Member

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    WRT 4" clearance when folded up, that depends on what kind of structures, hills (and ravines/canyons), trees, etc. you want. Tracks passing over other tracks would not be possible. I would consider hinging the door from the front of a deeper shelf. Even for a layout with all the trackage in one horizontal plane, I find it more interesting if terrain both rises above the tracks and sinks below them. Laying the track on extruded foam insulation board (e.g. 2" Corning pink foam) makes this really pretty easy.

    WRT the locos, that's your call. Especially sound-equipped DCC locomotive are much more expensive than DC, and, excluding sound, DCC-ready DC locos are much easier to upgrade to DCC (and less costly if you want to pay someone to upgrade them.) Note that drop in options are not available in N scale for most high-end decoders (e.g. Zimo or ESU), and decent sound decoders are never drop in (the speaker has to go somewhere...). I have no experience with how well DCC locos run on DC.
     
  16. Ron Petrich

    Ron Petrich TrainBoard Member

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    Food for thought Andy on the radii of some of the curves. I will check out XTrackCAD. As for access, that is why I am putting the table on removable legs with casters, so when I fold it down I can roll it to the center of my garage. And your comment on the depth of the mounting box is well spoken. I think with a little creative engineering I can move the hinges further from the garage wall and build a box, perhaps with 1x10 or 1x12 pine, to provide a bit more space. Thanks again.
    Ron in Sacramento
     
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  17. BigJake

    BigJake TrainBoard Member

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    I have seen folks mount folding banquet table legs on 1x lumber screwed across the underside of the HCD (near the edges, where the HCD is solid). If you can find casters that mount in those kinds of legs, that would work well, and would be self-storing with the layout against the wall.

    I have also seen folks use lengths of metal conduit to extend the banquet legs, raising the layout up for a better, closer to eye-level viewing angle. Not sure if those would work that well with casters.

    Since you will be storing the layout vertically, you must securely fasten all scenery, and remove all rolling stock from the layout (and store them somewhere?) I can't help but think that might get old, but we all have to find ways to enjoy this hobby in the available space.

    I have also seen folks suspend layouts from the ceiling, and raise them up out of the way while remaining horizontal. Just use a lightweight plastic drop cloth for protection from dust, etc., A boat trailer winch, some pulleys and cable/rope would do the trick.

    Just thinkin' out loud about ways to keep the layout horizontal when not in use, so you don't have to remove and store all the rolling stock when not in use.

    -- Andy
     
  18. BigJake

    BigJake TrainBoard Member

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    I also noticed an S-curve that might not be too reliable on the Manning Oaks layout. On the left end, long spur, the S-curve is formed by a 28R15 and an adjacent 13.75R45.

    I use a formula to roughly compare the severity of an S-curve between two curves of R1 and R2, to a straight-curve (of radius Req) transition:
    1/Req = 1/R1 + 1/R2, or
    Req = 1/(1/R1 + 1/R2)​
    Using that, the radius of an equivalent straight-curve transition would be 9.22R, or slightly worse than a transition from straight to 9.75R curve.

    The minimum complement curve radius for a 28R curve in an S-curve is 15R (equivalent to straight-9.77R transition).
    For Unitrack pieces, the minimum allowable single track S turn combinations I recommend as follows:
    28R-15R
    19R-19R

    A lot of factors go into how well equipment handles S-curves: length of rolling stock, length between truck pivots for truck mounted couplers, length from truck pivot to coupler interface (for both truck- and body-mounted couplers), pushing vs pulling (esp. pushing truck-mounted couplers), truck vs body-mounted couplers (and mismatches between coupled cars.), grade, length (weight) of train, etc. Volumes have been written in discussion of this topic.

    I haven't gone below 11R on any of my layouts, but I have used 19R/19R S-curves without any issues. Most of my rolling stock (besides locomotives) have truck-mounted couplers. All of my locomotives have body-mount couplers.
     

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