dcc++ ex and wi throttle

sidney Feb 1, 2022

  1. BigJake

    BigJake TrainBoard Member

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    Sorry, what blew up and won't even boot up?
     
  2. sidney

    sidney TrainBoard Member

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    the image i think. i don't really know. when i finally was able to shut it down , i tried to restart it and nothing just a blank screen... i put the older image rpi-jmri.20211104 on another sd card and its working flawlessly. Ive got three locos running ,the nw2 i load up on the phone throttle so i can do yard work (i also use it to short out in the turnouts) for some reason the older system works great for me..
    this last time i shorted out the locos 4 times and all was fine until i went to shut down the system then i could not shut down any thing . It simply would not respond. i don't know whats going on.
    WHY does the older system work great for me but the newer one will not??
    Should be sorta the same shouldn't it ?
    4 days and no progress with it and the thing is i can get reliable repeatability with the problem with the newer system...
    i really thought it had been fixed with the power supply change until i went to shut down...
    As of right now im running the older image file and everything is running great . 2 engines running and the nw2 doing yard work and not one single glitch what so ever...
     
    Sumner likes this.
  3. BigJake

    BigJake TrainBoard Member

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    Okay then, how did you shut down the R-Pi the last time before it refused to boot up?

    Specifically, did you shut down the R-Pi OS (Linux) before removing power from the R-Pi?

    If not, then that can corrupt files and/or the filesystem if file(s) were being written when power was removed. Linux is almost always updating files, even if you are not "doing anything." I hear some people have had incredible luck with just removing power to shut down their R-Pi, but it's a crap-shoot. Sooner or later, they'll go bust.

    Note, there is a key on the Pi-400's keyboard that will perform the shutdown when pressed. Wait several seconds after pressing it to remove power.

    There is a mini-hat (daughter-board) available for the R-Pi that has a pushbutton, and will do the same thing for Pi-4's.
     
    Mark Ricci likes this.
  4. sidney

    sidney TrainBoard Member

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    The corruption of the file system is exactly what is happening i be-leave. it seems as though everything works fine until i short out a loco and thats when i start getting problems. other wise all works as intended.......

    my shut down procedure is stop all locos running then get out of each throttle, then shut down jmri , then shut down pi4 via raspberry , then i unplug the power to the power supply... (Note i do not have a reg pi key board. its just a small generic keyboard )

    BUT NOW when its not responding i unplug the power supply i have no choice....

    What button on the key board shuts it down ??
    What is this mini-hat board for the r-pi ?? i will look into that as well. i have a few things coming that i have ordered . WiFi board for the Arduino and a few other things (boards )

    MY question remains as to why the older image works GREAT but i have problem with the newer one ?
    Maybe because all the newer stuff added into the newer image ?

    So far the older system is working flawlessly. im running trains 2 to 3 at a time and using the phone throttle for the yard loco. i love that phone throttle ( i would like 28 steps or fewer for the phone throttle..)
     
  5. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

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    Mark Ricci likes this.
  6. Sumner

    Sumner TrainBoard Member

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    If you haven't done it....



    ... spend under $30 and put a physical speed control knob on it and be amazed at the throttle control you now have without having to look at the screen. More ( HERE ).

    I believe you are using EngineDriver....go into 'Preferences' then 'Throttle Control Preferences' then 'Speed Units' and change the steps if you need to.
     
  7. BigJake

    BigJake TrainBoard Member

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    The Pi-400 keyboard is custom, but the shutdown/power-off key appears to be [raspberry]F10. IOW, hold down the Raspberry key (like a ctrl key at lower left) while pressing F10. I don't have a 400, so I cannot confirm this directly.
     
  8. sidney

    sidney TrainBoard Member

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    sumner Thank You ill look at that. my phone throttle works very nice and the parts printed off real nice as well. the knob is a must have as well.
    im really enjoying the dcc++ex on the Arduino and the phone throttle . i should have done the long ago. i was thinking of selling my NCE system but im gunna keep it for now possibly for spare or programming , maybe a small layout in the future... i dunno yet. the Arduino is working out quite well so may sell it for extra money for layout....

    BigJake Thank you ill try that on this keyboard and see if that works.
    ive been running trains pretty regular with the older version and they are still working great. not one lil glitch what so ever. im pretty happy with this setup..maybe at latter date ill retry the other again maybe...
     
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  9. sidney

    sidney TrainBoard Member

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    ok can somebody shed some light on what the heck all this means . ( i think it means it wont work)
    im still trying to make this work but im not having any luck at all. and its driving me nuts as to why it works for everybody but me. im doing all the right steps for installing but every time it shorts out bam no worky no mo. im gunna get this just because its really pissing me off.......im trying to install onto arduino mega 2560

    #include "DCCEX.h"
    #ifdef WIFI_WARNING
    #warning You have defined that you want WiFi but your hardware has not enough memory to do that, so WiFi DISABLED
    #endif
    #ifdef ETHERNET_WARNING
    #warning You have defined that you want Ethernet but your hardware has not enough memory to do that, so Ethernet DISABLED
    #endif
    #ifdef EXRAIL_WARNING
    #warning You have myAutomation.h but your hardware has not enough memory to do that, so EX-RAIL DISABLED
    #endif
     
  10. Sumner

    Sumner TrainBoard Member

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    Are you using the auto installer? And it is a Mega not a Uno....right? If using the auto installer are you checking the boxes for the items that came up with the warning?

    Also I know the Discord group thing .....

    https://discord.com/invite/PuPnNMp8Qf

    .... can be overwhelming but they have an 'Open a Ticket' there that is pretty simple as you ask a question and someone responds to only your question so it isn't as confusing as reading some of the other threads there. I rarely read them as it is over my head and they seem to get off topic a lot.

    I used the 'ticket' the other day and got help right away from Ash (posts here) and others. Try it maybe?

    Oh yes, you will succeed :)

    Sumner
     
  11. sidney

    sidney TrainBoard Member

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    ive used various installers trying to figger this thing out.
    yes sir im using the mega 2560.
    i had a ticket on the discord site but they kept telling me the things Ive already done and they keep repeating (there is only so much i can take ).
    they were trying to help but its not been any closer.. the closest Ive gotten was when i was corresponding with Steve Todd. but that too went south , but i sure thought we had it that time. just today i lost it all again. i tried reinstalling with a clean slate only to right off the bat do it again and nothing even shorted out i didn't even get to load a throttle up. im starting to wonder if the boards are bad.. ive reloaded an old version but have not ran many trains. it did the same thing too but i was able to shut down and restart the system and it came back to life....im now five days into this and nowhere closer to finding the problem. i just cant understand why its only me with this problem . im doing what everything tells me by the book step by step.. ive got a new board today but have not had luck in installing any thing its got the wifi built into it.
    ive ordered a new Arduino mega it should be here next week. raspberries went shi high in price so thats out for me. i might swipe the one from my 3d printer.
    has anybody tried shorting out there system to see if it happens to them yet ? I think the last time it did this to me i hit a key on the keyboard by accident i believe. i ordered a new sd card as well 16 gigabyte that's currently installed in the raspberry. the raspberry dcc++ex is on a 256 gb sd card i have not wiped it yet. (thinking maybe futher down the road when i can understand more of the coding i can look in it to see what is going on.)
     
  12. Sumner

    Sumner TrainBoard Member

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    Yes I did short mine out repeatedly the other day after you asked and everything stopped (2 locos running) and started again when I removed the short (did this a number of times).

    =====================================================

    First do this on the Mega:

    Use the Installer shown next:
    exInstaller
    Note

    Clicking on the link below will automatically find the correct version for your Computer and Operating system (Windows, Mac, Linux) and download it. After unzipping the files to a folder on your computer and running the “exInstaller” program, you will have the opportunity to select either CommandStation-EX or BaseStation-Classic, and options, such as your Arduino type and motor shield type. It will automatically upload the software to your Arduino or other supported board. Click here for exInstaller installation instructions. If you have an issue with the web page getting you the correct version, click on the Latest DCC++ EX Official Release button in the next section to manually download the correct version.

    Automated Installer

    Here: https://dcc-ex.com/download/commandstation.html

    I would not check the WiFi or any of the other options boxes at this point even though your Mega has WiFi capabilities.

    ===========================================================================

    If things are working normal then I would tackle the WiFi if this is the board you have (what I have):

    https://dcc-ex.com/advanced-setup/supported-microcontrollers/wifi-mega.html#mega-wifi-configuration

    This gets more complicated and it is very important to follow the procedure to the letter. Took me two try's.

    ==========================================================================

    The Mega isn't going to automatically work with WiFi. You have to do the steps just above. Once they have been done then go back to the Auto Installer (step 1 above) and connect the Mega and do it again. This time check the WiFi box but not the others and once you check the WiFi box don't fill in anything under it. Compile and download the software again to the Mega.

    ===============================================================================
    Doing the WiFi install by only clicking on it and nothing else sets the WiFi up in AP mode which your phone throttle should find. At this point if you haven't gotten any error messages you should be able to go to your phone and go to WiFi on it and see the new WiFi connection. I'm at that point but couldn't turn track power on after selecting an engine and was told what to do but haven't tried it yet. Not sure why I want to do this as I'll continue to use the Pi's WiFi hotspot with JRMR's WebThrottle since I can pick and an engine to run with EngineDriver from the roster list instead of having to put in the road number which is hard to see.

    Stay with it and eventually you will probably find that it was something small,

    Sumner
     
  13. sidney

    sidney TrainBoard Member

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    Thank you sumner ill print this out and save to test ......
    by golly i think ive got it. it seems as though my kato track is the culprit.... for 3 hrs this am ive been running trains. and at first i though my nw2 was doing it , SO i removed it completely. ok done everything is working as it should then i switch a turn out and start slowing a loco #103 down to make the turn out, Nothing no response what so ever.. HUMMMMM (sid thinks) so i shut down the whole system and reboot. ok lets try this again so everything powers up and once again locos #103 an 3102 are running very well for just under 1 hr, ok i throw the turn out this time a different one and start to slow the loco #3102 down for that turn out ,, Nothing no response again so i shut everything down all locos still rolling on at the power they has been set too (HUMMMMMM) ok so now its the kato turn outs giving me all this. so i think well maybe one of the cars are bad (ie axle short ) so i remove all cars except ones connected to locos #103 an #3102 . Lets try this again i restart the whole system and run locos ,,,,all is well for a about 45 minutes . I flip the turn out switch and we have no response from any locos and they have full power after shut down again. so now me thinks its the kato track an or turn outs........witch i don't under stand at all. Because when i hook up the power cab everything works great and when i hook up my main computer everything works great,,...so what the $@%$@ is going on.......for now im going to pull track apart one section at a time :mad: and see if i can isolate something. But im pretty sure that my track is not shorting any where.. but im going to start disconnecting feeders one at a time too for this long aggravating process im about to undertake .......power to kato turn out are on a separate power supply as i thought they were draining the power from the pi4 but i have3 the same results... oh and im able to repeat this time and time again too with the turn outs. as long as i dont throw the switches for turn outs all is well.........its frustrating
     
  14. sidney

    sidney TrainBoard Member

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    this is the board i just bought its sitting on the bench . i think i have the sketch loaded on it but ive not even tested it yet as ive been working on the problem of my shorts . i tried to install the wifi part but i gave up in frustration. maybe after i get tired of finding the problem with my current setup ill try again..
     
  15. Sumner

    Sumner TrainBoard Member

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    I don't think from what you are saying that it has anything to do with the DCC++EX or the Pi. It might have to do with how they react to a short vs. the ProCab. DCC++EX is going to shut the power off immediately when the short occurs and not restore it until the short is resolved.

    Knowing that I could see where going through that turnout if for instance the loco or a car creates a short in the frog or some place else in the turnout the power is going to go right off and stay off until the loco/car is moved and no longer causing the short. The ProCab might not react as quickly to the short so you might not know that it is happening.

    I build all my turnouts so know how they work and they all have powered frogs. Are your frogs powered or isolated. If isolated then I don't think it would be a problem at the frog but if powered possibly. I'd look into that aspect more.

    Didn't look at this whole video but looks to maybe address this:



    Some more ( HERE ).

    Sumner
     
  16. BigJake

    BigJake TrainBoard Member

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    Unitrack switches are power routing, meaning only the selected route is powered if power is otherwise only supplied to the point end of the switch. Some can be user-configured to be either power routed or not.

    Does the short occur when the switch is thrown, or only when thrown and a loco passes through it?

    I would be interested to know how DCC++ EX knows when the short is removed while the track power remains off. Most systems will periodically re-enable the track power, and shut down again if the short persists.

    Systems may differ in how long between short detection/shutdown and re-enabling track power, and in how quickly they remove power when a short is detected (thus some systems might roll right through intermittent shorts.) The latter is why some DCC systems are incompatible with some auto-reversing systems.
     
  17. Sumner

    Sumner TrainBoard Member

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    As far as I know that is what happens but best to check with the guys on Discord as I'm not smart enough to give you a though answer on that. I know that it will restore as soon as the short is removed. I took a wire and quickly put it on off and it followed the speed that I did that.

    Interesting thought on 'some don't work with all auto-reversers'. I have Tam Valley auto reversers but haven't tried them yet. I know that they worked fine with the original DCC++ but even though DCC++EX started there it is a complete rewrite so I'll be interest in knowing myself if there will be a conflict. My gut feeling is that it is all going to happen so fast that the train basically won't have the power off to notice visually if the train changed speed at all.

    I might ask the Discord group myself if this has come up.

    Sumner
     
  18. Ash

    Ash TrainBoard Member

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    This shows how track power is sampled until the overload condition is resolved. DCC++EX will continue to test, doubling the time interval, until it exceeds 10 seconds. And then every 10 seconds.

    The overload messages can also be seen in the JMRI DCC++ Traffic Monitor screen.
    (You may want to include the DCC++ Traffic Monitor screen as one of your JMRI/Preferences/Startup options.)
    Code:
    15:00:31.426 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER OVERLOAD current=887 max=247 offtime=20 *>
    15:00:31.426 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER RESET delay=100 *>
    15:00:31.519 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER OVERLOAD current=880 max=247 offtime=40 *>
    15:00:31.566 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER RESET delay=100 *>
    15:00:31.660 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER OVERLOAD current=887 max=247 offtime=80 *>
    15:00:31.754 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER RESET delay=100 *>
    15:00:31.847 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER OVERLOAD current=887 max=247 offtime=160 *>
    15:00:32.035 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER RESET delay=100 *>
    15:00:32.129 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER OVERLOAD current=880 max=247 offtime=320 *>
    15:00:32.457 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER RESET delay=100 *>
    15:00:32.550 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER OVERLOAD current=890 max=247 offtime=640 *>
    15:00:33.160 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER RESET delay=100 *>
    15:00:33.254 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER OVERLOAD current=887 max=247 offtime=1280 *>
    15:00:34.566 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER RESET delay=100 *>
    15:00:34.660 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER OVERLOAD current=890 max=247 offtime=2560 *>
    15:00:37.238 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER RESET delay=100 *>
    15:00:37.332 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER OVERLOAD current=854 max=247 offtime=5120 *>
    15:00:42.441 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER RESET delay=100 *>
    15:00:42.535 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER OVERLOAD current=887 max=247 offtime=10240 *>
    15:00:52.753 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER RESET delay=100 *>
    15:00:52.894 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER OVERLOAD current=887 max=247 offtime=10000 *>
    15:01:02.878 -> <* PROG TRACK POWER RESET delay=100 *>
    (I was testing on the programming track and had included a burden resistance of 15 ohms -- which resulted in 0.9A, and exceeded the 250mA NMRA standard for the programming track.
    <D PROGBOOST> can be used to override the 250mA limit, with the trip current specified in the motor board definition.)
     
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  19. BigJake

    BigJake TrainBoard Member

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    The purpose of excess DCC current detection is different for programming vs running trains.

    During programming, the goal is to (try to) protect potentially improperly installed encoders from frying themselves, while functionally using current detection for detecting encoder responses to commands. The max current limits (and minimum response currents?) are dictated by NMRA.

    During running, standards are less strenuous (if existent at all?) due to different layout sizes, scales, numbers of locomotives simultaneously operating, auto-reversing sections, etc. The primary goal is to prevent damage to the layout/wiring and locomotives running on it, but does not include communication from loco to CS. A 10 amp booster could destroy a Z- or N-scale decoder, motor, wheelsets, etc. without ever tripping. A 2 amp booster might not run a G scale train at speed and/or up grades. Track circuit breakers should behave similarly to boosters WRT time delays before shutting down, to allow for AR devices to function properly. Multiple, lower amperage circuit breakers dedicated to smaller power districts within the overall layout allow a single, high amperage booster to safely run a large yet smaller scale layout.

    In general, an auto-reverser needs to react more quickly than the booster or circuit breaker to a short circuit, otherwise it will never switch polarities properly before the booster/CB shuts the whole layout/district down, even if temporarily.

    This is why some boosters (including command stations that incorporate the primary booster) do not work with all circuit breakers and auto reversers, and vice versa.
     
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  20. Sumner

    Sumner TrainBoard Member

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    I have a feeling that the Tam Valley auto-reverser and frog juicers are probably fine with DCC++EX as far as trip time is concerned but there might be a problem using the Arduino motorshield. I've only been able to find one post on how fast the Tam Valley is ( HERE ) and it states a 200 micro second trip time which I believe is plenty fast enough to reverse before the command station would cut the power but...............

    ........... in looking for the answer to this I also saw ( HERE ) that the Tam Valley won't work with SPROG II and some other command stations that don't put out very much current unless they are supplying power/dcc to a booster and the booster is supplying track power. So it might also effect being able to run with DCC++EX using an Arduino motorshield (commonly used) as it might not put out enough current to trip the Tam Valley either.

    I have and plan on using Tam Valley boosters and circuit breakers so basically the DCC++EX will only be sending signals to those items so won't be supplying track power on the main layout like it does on my test track. In that mode I think that Tam Valley is going to work fine for myself.

    Sumner
     
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