I cross posted this to the Atlas boards just to gauge their reaction. This was the last post in the thread So it would appear that we all should have done some research before shooting off our mouths.
William, I think that everyone should, at some time have a go at building a kit - any kit- just to find out what it feels like to be able to say "I built that" With your perseverance building the Maxi III, you should feel pretty darned pleased with the result A kit building spree is a good idea, but I rule myself out, as I spend most of most days building kits!
Well, actually, I DID do some research. And I checked other boards (including the Athearn board on Yahoo! Groups), and noticed a big concern about the future on the blue box kits. The poster of the thread I stumbled upon did some research himself- perhaps not according to the scientific method I learned in college, but research nonetheless. I started this thread not to wail & gnash my teeth, or insult folks who fall in the category of Yuppie, or any of that mess, nor was it my intention to have this thread go that direction. Nor was it my intention to do my Chicken Little impersonation & run around yelling "The sky is falling!" It was to ask if anyone has noticed a decrease of Athearn products. If indeed Athearn is scaling back on their production instead of eliminating it entirely, that is good news. As Martyn and several others have said, some hobby shops are full to the gunwales with Athearn kits- oddly enough, there are some shops who have problems getting what their customers want. I think this thread has pretty well run its course. If you'll excuse me, I have some kits (Athearn, of course, and SD45s if you must know ) to work on. Not to mention yet another Baldwin, and a caboose that screams for a coat of Mandarin orange. Got a kit-building party to attend......... [ 23. April 2003, 00:15: Message edited by: friscobob ]
OK, so who's going to start the kit building party? In N scale, I'm afraid I can't think of any beginner's kits, other than MDC/Roundhouse and Intermountain. Alan, would you say your kits would classify as beginners'? I'll sign up for an Intermountain Santa Fe reefer kit. I actually managed to vacuum the last few units out of three different retailers and they're sitting on the shelf, glaring at me. Sounds like our HO brethren should go and harass their LHS's. If they don't carry the blue box items, I say give 'em what-for for not carrying something there's clearly a demand for. Amazing what a little customer hot air can accomplish! So, who all is signing up for this?
sorry Bob, I didn't mean to accuse you of anything. When I opened the thread at Atlas, a couple of people told me I was crying wolf, that Athearn has already answered the question. Apparently the CORRECT reseatch avenue was simply not hit upon.
Not as a result of wisdom but I managed to accumulate many Athearn kits from shows and hobby shops. I set them aside knowing I would eventually find time to build them. I feel the same as others already have said, it is rewarding to build and age a piece of rolling stock. I enjoy spending the time to build, it is relaxing from my management job.
ehhhh........no problem. Of course, I didn;t know about the Atlas thread- if I had, my fears would have been put at ease. Best thing for us would be to contact Athearn and ask them about the availability of blue-box kits. The post I read in the Athearn group did raise my alertness a bit............may have to go check it out.
A very interesting thread to say the least. While I'm not in HO myself, I don't like to see the decline in kits. Sweat equity does mean something. Time means something too. I find that I have less time to work on kits, which leaves less time for working on getting a layout up and running, which means no trains running. The trend of RTR is not new. It seemed to start when manufacturers went to China to have the models built. It was a double edged sword. We got more detail for the buck but it became the norm. S scale and O have the same trend going on now too. I have two sons who like trains. My oldest one has assembled an Athearn kit and scratch built a flat car in S. My youngest is now getting to the point he wants to do a kit. Now is the time for me to get my boys interest in full gear. What can we do to get others interested? Maybe we need to start using Athearn kits as door prizes for the younger enthusiast at train shows? Any other ideas? Greg Elems
<font color="336633">I have nothing against RTR cars, as long as they are built to a high standard, Walthers are a good case of this, I have had lots of their kits but now that they only produce RTR I had no choice to buy some (I had a centerbeam flat and a pulpwood flat) BUT I will not buy anymore, these have to be the worst quality I have ever seen on an RTR item, when I get time I will dissamble the cars clean off all the glue blobs and poor painting, and start from scratch.... This of course takes a lot longer than building them origonally in kit form. I have had several Atlas & Proto 2000 RTR cars as these are built to a very high standard. So if Athearn does ditch the kits then I hope that they do it with quality, or they will also lose my custom along with Walthers. </font>
Something else which I think is worth pointing out in a sense of fairness is that the Athearn Ready-to-Roll line is a long way from being a $30 freightcar. More of a $13 (ish) freightcar, versus a kit at $6-$7.50 (ish) The "Genesis" line and other similar lines from other companies (like P2K) are offering a very different product to the Athearn Ready-to-Roll, they tend to have lots of separately applied fine detail which is just not there on the older Athearn mouldings. The core of the Athearn Ready-to-roll is the old bluebox kits themselves (*), assembled, with nice (often specialist) paint jobs, metal wheels and knuckle couplers, but they are not a different product to the bluebox line in most ways. (*)The exceptions are new products which were never Bluebox, like the F59 and Ford truck, plus a growing number of ex Rail Power Products items that were only available as undec kits before.
My original comments were not directed specifically at the Athearn Blue Box management, but at our country's business in general, as they seem to have evolved to be operated profitably today. It is not only in our hobby, but in almost all of our business life. The decline in fairness and honesty, I feel, is directly a product that grew out of the removal of many of the principles our country was founded on in the first place, and by removing God from our public lives. The breakup of our family life, the "Get rick quick", "Take advantage of the other guy", the "Win some lose some", "I'm better than you are", attitudes that are prevalent in our lives today, I see around me, comes from kids who were not "raised", but were allowed to just "grow up", I think. We were taught to respect our elders, we minded our fathers and mothers because that IS God's Law. We were patriotic because of the privilege of living in a country where freedom had value. "Brand Names" came along because those denoted the product could be counted on to be of the finest materials and quality backed up with free replacement, repairs, or your money back. The Good House Keeping Seal of Approval was bestowed only upon those company products that met or exceeded certain strict tests, and we could count on it all the way to the Bank. I haven't noticed any company products on today's market the "exceed" any quality, except maybe Rolls Royce and they went out of business. There was a time when America was the Leader of the World, highly respected, and almost anything made in America was to be highly prized as being the very best in quality and performance because we were a country that even on our money had a motto that said: "In God We Trust". It is written: "When God is on your side, who can stand against you?" When our voting people allowed God to be separated from our government and schools, we began the long decline into becoming the laughing stock of the world. You don't hear such thoughts here in the US of A because our media is controlled by the government, but if you go abroad, you find it out. We even sanction our very President to stand before us in public straight faced and lie to us, the slick out of it and remain in his position! It was unthinkable for an American company to allow a customer to be short changed. No student was allowed to disrespect a teacher. If some unruly brat stole an apple off a grocer's display, that grocer would beat him black and blue, then the kid's Dad beat him again when he got home and paid the grocer. It was a shame to have a kid that didn't mind. Now it is against the "law" to correct your child, so we have lawlessness! Of Course! If a contractor agreed to build a house with oak trim, and he used pine then painted it to look like oak, the contractor was publicly noted as a fraud, and he lost his business besides having to pay whatever the cost to have his cheap stuff removed and replaced by professional cabinet makers who did use oak wood. That was the "American Way". It was not just our hobby that went into decline, it was our morals. It is no longer a shame to over-charge a customer, it is considered good business if you can get away with it. It was suggested to delay paying a supplier for as long as you could so you could gain that much more interest on the money that by rights he should be gaining the interest on. Instead of paying a fair share, every loop hole, and tax dodge is scrutinized to take advantage by not paying taxes, or wages, or insurance. Every cost is not taken out of operating expenses, it is passed down onto the customer, that again is good business. You don't have to "build" a good business today, you simply advertise that it "is" a good business so people will believe it if you tell them enough times. Most of you have no idea how vast the difference in pay scale between those who work and those who are the "boss" is today, unless you are college educated, or are a CEO of a company! They don't get it because of their craftsmanship, they get it by paying you only what they have to and keeping the rest. He doesn't plow it back into the company, like the old man who started the company, it is his retirement fund. Our hobby is one of the few places where real craftsmanship is appreciated today, unless you are an antique dealer selling the things made "back then". One time when asked, "What is the most sobering thought you have ever entertained?", Benjamin Franklin replied, "That I shall have to stand before my God and account for everything I have done in my life". The argument really started back in the hippie days I think, when kids started to rebel against controls that were no longer based on the teachings of our Lord. Then they grew up and run our government and their businesses produce the models for us today, with a few exceptions. Personally, I happen to like Athearn models because I grew up with them, along with some others. Athearn, Varney, and Mantua are the only ones, of those I bought, that never left a part out, nor that I had to ask for a replacement for. There were other brands I did, and some brands I never had, so I can't comment of all manufacturers. If we all "played nice" like our mom told us to, we wouldn't be up to our arm pits in lawyers, and griping about whether a product is "good" or not, today. There would be no need to. We could argue this till we are all old and ugly, but there is an old Texas saying that usually ended those arguments: Kinky said, "Let's kill two birds and get stoned!"
tsk tsk! First smelling glue, now getting stoned... what IS becoming of this country!!?? With (a little) more seriousness: good points, sir, and well taken. However... Can we just take a step back for a second? Hasn't the quality of our hobby actually increased? Not everything is in decline. Atlas has built a good reputation, and continues to do so. You should see the phenomenal detail they give us in N scale locos these days! Kato came from nowhere in the last 20 years. The Intermountain "brastic" (brass/plastic) locos are exceptional. By all acounts (I'm not in HO) ditto for Athearn's Genesis line. We have choices like never before. And there are still good people behind the hobby. For every Irv Athearn no longer here, there is an Alan Curtis. Even Bachmann is beginning to put out good stuff here and there. What is the world coming to, indeed... Think how the internet has helped the hobby, too. Whippersnappers like me get to benefit on this board from experienced modelers like you and Robert and others, and I'm sure this is true of many. Wow - how nice! When things are not like they used to be, it's NOT always bad. As a member of managment I can tell you what you experienced, and therefore believe, while valid, is not true everywhere. There are lots of classy, professional companies who do right by their customers and employees. I can introduce you next time you're out in this neck of the woods. As for the country as a whole, well, we no longer hunt witches. McCarthyism is gone. Air quality is improving. We have freedoms like never before in the history of mankind. Whenever there's a disaster anywehere in the world, Americans reach into their pockets and help. Liberally. More than in the past, because now we have the internet and other media to move things along. And more wealth. I think that's wonderful. As for ethics and morals, I read old newspapers from the previous century and I see more get rich quick ads there than I see today, and scores of companies no longer with us because they made junk. So, no, mankind is no worse today than a hundred years ago. The Great Revival wouldn't have happened in the previous century if God didn't think there was a need for it THEN - think about that for a second. It's true, not all is rosy today. It never was, though, and it never will be. But look at the positive. Parents today are able to do so much more for their kids than before. Is there some neglect? Sure. But wasn't there some neglect back then too? Of course there was. I'm reminded of an episode. A friend and I were driving somewhere and a grade crossing sprang to life before us, and of course we had to stop. He was totally bummed at just missing the cut, while I was delighted to have "front row seats" to a train of autoracks. Same facts, different perspective. It all depends on how you see things. As for me, the glass is half full and the water tastes great!
I have checked out the Athearn RTR cars, and they ARE pretty nice- ditch those plastic "couplers" and install some Kadees (a subject for another thread), and you have something. The Proto 1000 cars I have ain't too shabby either, and I bought 'em on sale. The high-dollar cars I refer to would be some of the Genesis cars, as well as the Kadee 40' boxcars. Fortunately, I don't model the modern day, so a $50 AutoMax carrier will never polish the rails of my layout. And since I can paint & decal, I won't slap down 35 bucks a pop for those Trinity covered hoppers. Oh boy, I can see another thread coming......comparisions between the RTR cars in HO scale...........
Hello all: I don’t frequently post here, but do stop in and see what’s new on the board. I’m glad I checked out this topic. I didn’t know Athearn was getting rid of their kits. I thought the new stuff was just better detailed (and thus more expensive). After looking at one of their ads in Model Railroader; I see the cars are ready to run. The “blue box” kits were just great and relatively inexpensive. I just got some at a train meet last winter. I would find it difficult to fill a descent-sized layout with some of the expensive cars and kits that are currently available. Wonder how long it will be before we see people bidding like mad men for “blue box” kits on ebay?
I have been buying the"blue box kits" at local train shows, 10 to 15 at a time for around $ 4.00 to $5.00 a kit, you might try that route. The selections were very good. jd
From Railroadforums.com: I was at a train show with the modular club I belong to this past weekend in Pomona, and Athearn had a booth set up there. I spoke with the rep and shared my friend's concerns with him. I received some insightful answers, that may or may not be news to members of the model railroading community. Athearn is not dropping the "blue box" car kits. They are doing what they have always done except they are now telling everyone in advance via their web site. Athearn has never been able to produce all of the rolling stock they make in any one year. In the past they knew what models they would produce for the year, but they didn't tell anyone in advance. Now they have their production schedule for the coming year posted. As he told me, they won't be doing "pickle cars" this year. This way you can look at their web site and know whether to bother ordering a particular model or not. They are dropping the "blue box" locomotive kits in favor of offering the new "blue and yellow box" ready to run locomotives. They are doing this for quality control reasons. The factory built locomotives are assembled better than most home built models. If you want to remove handrails, add details, etc, it is easy to do. They bought out Railpower Products. As a result, all of the old model locomotives with wide hoods that Railpower made scale width hoods for will be dropped from the line up. As they gear up for future production, the new product line will utilize the Railpower shells. These will also be offered in the 'blue and yellow box" lower priced line instead of the higher priced Genesis line. They are going in the direction of ready to run on the cars because, if you buy a "blue box" car kit, and then write to them to tell them you are missing a truck, they will send you a truck. They take your word that it was missing, but when they pakage that truck and mail it out, the cost of the replacement truck and shipping is more than the profit they made on the original sale of the kit. They are finding that the number of claims for lost parts virtually disappears with ready to run. This should ease some minds, plus also start another thread (or open a can of worms) about Athearn going to RTR locomotives. But I'm not going there!
Hey Guys, It's been some time since I've posted and I missed y'all but I have to say, yes, the hobby has deteriorated tremendously. I agree with Frisco Bob about the simplicity of Athearn's Blue Box kits and what you can do with them. I also agree that short term profits have all but come close to destroying this hobby. I truly was saddened when Mantua went out of business. Their free rolling drive systems were the best and by taking their frames, and putting Cary Boilers on them with detail kits, you were left with one heck of an engine . Not to mention that you could interchange from Baker to Wally Valve Gear and customize your engines! Mantua lost out because they didn't evolve when WE FAILED to maintain the skills necessary to keep their product. I cannot blame the CEO who still wears padded pampers completely. Just with anything else, we allow the manufactures to tell us what we think we want then rather what we telling them what we would like to see. I will say this, if there is anything that turns my face like this: it's this limited production, we're only making the big 4, and 90% is UP/ 96% is BNSF / 3% NS / 1% CSX ( Just figuratively ) instead of the roads of yesteryear, it can be downright discouraging. And the concept of paying $200.00 for an undecorated, and hope you don't mess it up painting, etc., let alone a decorated version, for quite a few of us is hard to swallow. I am impressed with some of the equipment coming out now, especially in the steam department, but I cannot help but feel a loss not only on the real rails in live steam all but gone, but putting my fabrication shops out of business and sending workers to the streets because I have no kits to build. Just how long will it be before Bowser and MDC quit making their kits? There's more to this then meets the eye, but yelling and screaming won't help. But the continued loss of revenue in the hobby will. How bad it must get? I don't know... Take care! Randy SLSFFRISCOKID
I am one of the newbies in the hobby but I have been at it for 13 years (I am 15 right now). When I was younger for Christmas and my birthday I would always get the blue boxes and I would ask my dad why he got me so many and now I am glad I did spend my allowence on box cars just cause it was a different paint scheme or he got me 3 cars with the same number and type that can easily be changed. Now you can't even find them. We havn't super detailed many of the cars we have (it is in future plans) so the R-T-R or the Genesis line don't really fit in to the fleet. Also I do miss putting the cars together and stuff. You don't gust run the train you make the train. It is a whole different side to modelrailroading that I love.
I'm with William Cowie on this one. I feel that these are the good old days.For me, this hobby has never been better.I've been modeling for 20 years and I can honestly say I'm not a kit builder. Not because I want it all and I want it now,but because I stink at building kits. I am amazed at how nice and highly detailed some of these RTR kits are. If I had to assemble all of my own engines and rolling stock I would quit this hobby. DCC,RTR, pink foam board,pre made trees and plaster cloth.YOOOHOOOO, bring 'em on.
