Background: My 8 yr old son has been playing with O27 for a few years all the while begging to setup the HO stuff I have had been slowling collecting over the years at garage sales so a few months ago I purched a quantity of LikeLike Power lock track and let him set this up on the floor in the garage after he spent a full day scrubbing the dusty old rolling stick with a tooth brush. He has enjoyed this so I wanted to get it off the floor and on a table but our budget for this is next to nothing. As luck would have it my neighbor moved and left behind a queen size box spring (although there are no springs) once again I put my son to work pulling all the staples out and removing the padding leaving just a wood frame, our new table with inside usable space of 6' x 4 1/2'! (Box spring upside down and track inside) I have setup the track in a layout that I can live with, a large outside loop with a single turnout into the center loop that raises to 3" at its highest point (~3% grade) and loops back around to go under the first loop with a turnout to short siddings in the middle of the layout at about 1" elevation. Questions: I have the scenery/terrain ideas in mind but currently I have to secure the track to the table. Can I just make risers from wood and set them like trestles or do I need to have a solid board underneath the entire length of track that is raised? Do I remove the track to put the scenery cloth or should the cloth overlap the edge of the track? This is crude and not to scale but it shows what I am doing: white = ground level light green = up grade (0-3") dark green = downgrade (3-1") Brown = mountains and town overlooking tracks (6-10") yellow = elevated yard (1') The sidings go under the town enough to pull a loco in. Thanks to all for this and all the info I have lurked out of these boards! MrKicks
MrKicks and son, WELCOME to the TrainBoard! Best to put the green grass cloth down first on the flat area, lay track on top. If you don't want to ballast right now, maybe you could get some light gray acrylic paint, and paint a "path" around where the track will go, to look like ballast. After paint dries, lay track. Try to avoid locating a switch on any cloth, but if you just have to; then glue an old phone card with the smooth side up, so it is positioned under the movable rail points. This can also be painted. It will prevent the rail points from getting caught on the cloth. If you use remote switching, it can also serve to mount the operating bar on. 3% is a steep grade, but today's engines should pull it OK. Main thing is to make long slow bending of the rails at top and bottom of this grade, so the cow catcher does not bottom out on the rails and short out. It is also necessary to prevent longer cars and engines from slipping one coupler up out of its mating coupler. HO track is not stiff like Lionel, so use one 9" section (2 sections would even be detter), to go from flat on the table up to rest the other end on 1/4" thk plywood, like a ramp. Use 4 screws spaced out in a 1" square to hold the plywood flat down on the table top where the grade is to start up. Lift the other end to gently bend the plywood up and set block risers every 4" and glue the risers to the table top, or use long screws on the first one. Use two screws to hold the bend in the plywood at each riser as you go. when you have the plywood at the proper angle to be a 3% grade, (or whatever you need), use a level to maintain the angle from now on. (Hold it level with one end on the plywood, and make a block to go under the lower end to hold the bubble level at the proper angle with masking tape.) When you get half way up to the 3" elevation, use a "C" clamp about 6" back from the edge of the elevation board to secure a 1x2 x 12" long cleat to the underside of the upper elevation board. Let the cleat stick out from under the elevation board about 2". Shim up on the cleat until a 1/4" plywood will just be flush with the top surface of the elevation board. Swing the cleat to one side, to pull the roadbed down onto the cleat, to mark the length of the roadbed. Use another "C" clamp to pull the plywood roadbed down flat on top of the cleat, mark it and trim the plywood off even with the elevation board. Clamp it down again and insert 4 screws (in the 1" square pattern), all the way into the cleat, and fasten the cleat in place with 2 screws 1/2" back from the edge of the elevation board, and 2 more 1" back from them. Leave the rest of the cleat for leverage, and remove all "C" clamps. Before laying track, sand the upper joint smooth making sure there are no dips, or humps. You can feel how smooth it "flows" by sliding your hand along the surface where the track will lay. Sand both edges of the plywood. For solid HO track on grades, risers may have to be every 6 to 8" apart. If one or both sides are sloping away like a fill, lay curtain material, or bed sheet, or even old panty hose on top of the roadbed on top of a bead of glue, use a glass bottle to roll the glue out smooth, and let dry. Mark where the slope will meet the flat ground below. (It will look more real if you sort of squiggle it around a little.) Generally the angle of repose is arount 40 degrees. Start in the middle of the 3% grade, and work out to both ends. Pull the material just tight and use a tacker to hold it in place. Move a couple of inches and do it again, staying on the line you marked. Don'y worry about wrinkles. If this is the side of a mountain, you are done, if it is a fill, do the other side of the roadbed the same as you did this side. Use a new box cutter and trim off excess material about 1/2" out way from all the tacker staples. apply glue solid all along the material edge, and over each staple. When dry, paint with acrylic ground colors, dribbling crushed dirt on the wet paint. finish by lightly spraying the area with clear no-gloss fixative. This may take a few passes. This is to fasten all the little rocks and boulders that rolled down the slope, and the small rocks and dust up at the top. Lastly, paint the gray ballast color along on the top. Notice how the wrinkles make it look pretty much like a real fill appears from a distance? If you do not use any curved track with less than an 18" radius, you should have no trouble. Try to stay with #6 switches to prevent derails of long 3 axle engines and long cars. You can have larger radius curves. Try to stay with all couplers mounted on the car body, and not on the trucks. (Lionel had their mounted on the trucks, but they were heavy, had long wheel flanges, and short 3 car trains when backing up. ) HO truck mounted couplers do not work well when going through #4 switches in either direction. Lay very smooth track, no kinks or sudden changes in elevation, or curvature. If you do not have good track, it will take the fun out of running, and you will lose interest. Do not "hide" a switch behind scenery. The operator must be able to see all switches to prevent derails. You can move the scenery, see? [ October 13, 2005, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: watash ]
Hi, welcome to Trainboard, both of you. Lots of info and inspiration, and friendly folks here. I'm not sure what Life-Like track looks like, but my instincts say the roadbed needs to be continuous(sp?). Constantly chasing gremlins out of the tracks can be frustrating, so effort to make it as smooth as possible is the ticket. One other thought comes to mind, cross bracing under the "table" to prevent sag. I learned my lesson on that one. Enjoy your railroading,
Not to throw off watash's very helpful and fine opinions, but if by all means, try not to use anything less then 22" Radius as with the older and also newer 3 axel Locomotives, they dont make it around 18 very well. Also, use Atlas. Very good, and cheap stuff. And remember, Have Fun with it.
Daylight-Boy is correct, if you have the space, try to stay away from 18" radius and #4 switches. The only reason I mentioned it above, is because of the space you are using. Yes, Atlas has very good products at reasonable prices. There are some who like brass track because it carries current better than other metals, but if not cleaned once in awhile, it will eventually corrode a greenish film, which is an insulator. It is easily removed and good service is restored. The yellow color distracts some people, but the brass rail is rather stiff, so supports well over gaps, and solders well when flux is applied. Others like Nickle Silver track, which is actually an alloy of copper and tin and contains no silver at all. It has a bright silvery color when new, but will eventually corrode to a brownish color, and this corrode will carry current. It is softer than brass, and more easily soldered, again when flux is applied. It carries current almost as well as brass. Another advantage is it is available in various sizes from code .055 up to code .100 the standard original size. Steel track is available, but it is extremely stiff, usually blackened, and must be brightened before attempting to solder. It does not solder easily and is prone to cracking soldered joints in time. It rusts easily which is an insulator. I personally avoid steel track.
Stay away from 18" curves?? My 4x8 layout has 18" and sharper curves on it, around 16 or 17 inches and they make 180 degree curve. And I run big steam locomotives on it like Bachmann's USRA light 4-8-2 and Rivarossi's 4-8-8-2 Cab forward along with 17 car freight trains and I haven't had any problem's. I also rebuilt the track about 2 years ago from using sectional track to all flex track so the curves are smoother. But, I've been wanting to get some Life-like SD-9s will I have a problem???
Tim I miss the real old 1930's Blue Grass music we used to listen to! About trains; all the manufacturers made rolling stock to go around the only curved track available, (18" radius), from the start of the HO size toy trains, up until a year or so ago. Even though flex track and sticks of individual rails, and wood ties and tiny off-set head spikes have been available since the 1930's, like Lionel, the only manufactured curved track that came with your Birthday "Train Set" gift, was the 18" curved brass track. We used to have large houses and most had basements, so space for large more true to life curves were possible. In today's make-a-buck world, we just do not have the room available, so we have to be a kid again and "Play-Like" we have a miniature copy of the real thing. Our imagination allows us to watch our Scale Replica and see it in our mind's eye as if it were a Scale Model of the real thing. What is the difference you ask? On the real thing, the 4-8-8-4 and all articulated engines, the rear 4 pair of drivers were made solid to the boiler. None of them ever swiveled for a curve or switch. Only the front set, (or engine of 4 pair of drivers), were hinged so they could swivel enough to go around a sharp curve. "Sharp" curve? A real sharp curve is 20 degrees! In HO scale, that is about 54" radius if to "Scale". Look at your 4-8-8-2 sitting on an 18" curve. Notice how the cab and the boiler front hang out away from the rails? A real Cab forward would simply tip over off the track from its own weight, so would your replica, except that the manufacturer located the hinge points in the middle of both front and rear engines so the weight could center over the track. An HO SCALE model engine with only the front engine able to swivel, while the rear engine can not, "Would" be able to go around the 54" radius curve, just like its 1 foot SCALE big brother. Only Bowser, and a few custom made engines, and a few BRASS imports, qualify as being real SCALE MODELS. They are not expected to go around an 18" radius curve without tipping over or derailing, because their front engine can not swing far enough to stay on the track, (and the weight of the boiler front sticking that far out to one side will tip the model over off the tracks). We do not have to room for them. It would take almost 10 feet to turn 180 degrees. We have to be satisfied with "Replicas" of the real thing, or at least accept them. Manufacturers have to make a profit to stay in business, so they had to hinge the rear engine and the front engine just to make the replica go around the miles of already sold 18" radius track. Try pulling 80 to 100 cars around an 18" radius curve without string lining, or try backing them up around the curve without buffing them. The 17 cars that are successfully following your engine around that "Horse Shoe Curve" are in "our" minds eye, 14,000 tons of coal that has to be delivered on time to keep the lights on in San Francisco! SEE? Street car and trolley car tracks sometimes had curves that only a 2 axle truck could swivel enough to go around. Only an 0-4-0 steamer could make it. I do not know about the very latest models out, but most 3 axle trucks will hit the shell when turned to an 18" radius. We had to carve out notches so they could make it. We just have to use our imagination and make the best of it. Remember Tim, in our eyes, our layout is the whole world and we are there!Only the "rivet counters" and "nit-pickers" will fuss and miss the fun we will be having. Of course you realize, this is all just my personal, stuborn, narrow-minded, biggoted, old duffer's opinion, offered while wheezing and gasping for breath in the last stages of old age. (But pay attention, I have been known to stomp in and give a test later!)
Watash, I never thought that an 18" radius curve was that sharp. I knew was pretty sharp of a curve, but not that sharp. What you said made recall seeing a train that I saw going around Cantara Loop. When going around the 18" curve in HO center beams and passenger cars have a lot of over hang on the curves. When I saw the same type of centerbeams going around Cantara Loop I noticed that there was't has much over hang on the cars even though Cantara Loop is a flange squealling 12 degree curve, and those flages do squeal even with greasers on both sides of the curve. I always thought that a 22" radius might be closer to the prototype Cantara Loop, but I guess it has to be a lot bigger than that. Thanks for the new perspective. Saw Ricky Skaggs and Kentucky Thunder about 2 weeks ago. They played alot of Bill Monroe stuff and boy can they really "jump in and mash on it!!"
I'm not familiar with the Cantara loop. You can easily layout a 12 degree curve like I did with the 20 degree curve. Then measure to find what radius that really is. It will surprise you! We all have to make compromises. Remember, 64 actual feet in length, is one HO scale mile long. There are a lot of HO layouts that have yards, towns, and seeming distance, that may not have 64 feet of track on their whole main line! The guy's whole world is happening in less than one mile! Like on our Lionel toy trains, we sure had fun in our mile of track! You know the UP Big Boy weighs 1,300,000 pounds, so if we were to really make a true scale model of it to HO scale, our model would weigh...well, figure it out, only one 87th as much as the real thing. (Divide the Big Boy by 87 and see what it is.) I think it would fall through my bridge, and I couldn't lift it back onto the layout! Never fail to exercise your imagination, it is what makes our hobby enjoyable. My Mom and Dad made a record playing "Golden Slippers", "Bury Me Beneath the Willow", "That Silver Haired Daddy of Mine", and other old old songs back in the 30's on banjos my Dad made from block wood. Mom's is a five stringer she played "Green Corn" on, and Dad's is a tenor he played the melody on, to any number of old songs, some of which Lula Belle and Scottie played on the old Barn Dance program. I can still remember hearing people that came down the mountain to play on wash tubs with a baling wire "string" and a home made horse hair bow, another had a cigar box violin he had made, another guy was "drawin' a bow" on a "Singing Saw", and someone else was "blowin' the jug". Some times there were several jugs of different pitch depending on how much water, (Or corn squeezin's) was in them when they got in tuned up. Up in West Virginia they played "The Old Blue Mule", "Wreck of the 97", "Left My Gal in the Mountains", and others I can't think of right now. Those were good times to me, with good people, good food, and good music, sometimes. [ October 20, 2005, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: watash ]
I suspect there isn't anything left to say, after seeing Watash's responses (Hi, Watash) But I do know that LL Power Lock has an integral roadbed, which does add considerably to its stiffness. It is not the old sectional joiner connected brass track. I believe they make a nickel silver line and I believe they have 22" radius. If not, then Bachmann makes a similar roadbed track up to 24" radius, and at least #6 switches. This is also a less expensive brand.
Hi Petey! How's my old buddy? You are correct, and I think I remember that it is the Bachmann track that has the steel rails, that are blackened. There is much more to say, because someone must have come up with a way to form a slight bow in this kind of roadbed/rail type sections. I have not tried to experiment on that, because it has been easier to make changes in elevation with the "cookie cutter" method of sawing and bending plywood, then lay flexible track on that. MrKicks and son, how are you coming along? I suggest you try laying a loop or section of track that will be on the lowest level. Follow where you plan to have it go, and hook up the transformer to this track temporarily, and run the train some. One, it will start and keep your interest going, and two, it will provide even a few minutes of pleasure even if you don't have time to really spend an evening on it. Experiment laying part of the first track that will go up grade,. Hook it up to the switch, and run trains up and back down on it. Also turn the engine around and run it that way too. That will tell you if it is equal both ways. If you run into a problem, let us know, and we'll send out the track crew to help. OK? Petey, got any photos yet?
"Hearin" you folks talk about music brings back some pleasant memories for me also. I grew up in a group of musicians, family and friends and band members, even managed to learn to pick a little bit myself. Sadly, most of 'em are gone now, but when I hear it done right, I'm a lot younger suddenly, in an old fashioned house, and they played for hours with nary a repeat. Thanks,
Helitrack, I think there are a lot of us that enjoy trains that also enjoy "old time" music, because the sound of steam engines running at track speed is also the rhythm we grew up with when the common songs of the day were played and enjoyed. I remember times when riding on trains and the whole passenger car was singing some song in time to the engine. Some of the men were the deep bass and a few of the women were coloratura sopranos able to hit high "C"! It was the 4 part songs I enjoyed the best of all. A lot of people carried French Harps and would make the steam engine exhaust sounds to songs like "Leaving on That New River Train". I remember our old 2-6-0 would get into a certain speed and some song like "Turkey in the Straw" would start up in my mind while we were running easy at around 40 miles an hour. Life was a ton better in those days, then we would blow the whistle! When Jack was running he often would get a 3/4 time song i his head, and be giving low short "toots" on the down beat, and the engine would make the "da da" he would "toot", da da toot da da toot da da and every one around would know Jack was coming into town playing his waltz again! It wasn't loud, it was just the way things were back then. On vacations, we even heard it up in the mountains of Colorado a time or two. I think its memories like this that make so many of us old timers wish for the days of steam again; because to us, diesels have no personalities to be excited about, and get to know as a living breathing individual we referred to as "She", that we fell in love with. Watching our models run helps bring back those emotions.
MrKicks and son, hope your project is moving along nicely, please let us know if you need any help/info/ideas. Watash, I think I'm more of a mid-timer(47), and the only steam I remember in real service,not museum/railfan oriented, was a Shay locomotive. Seems to me it always waltzed.
It was the three cylinders that made them sound that way. We could hear those old gear grinders coming for several minutes before we could see them coming around a curve some times. How you coming Mr. Kicks and son? How about letting your son tell us about what you two are doing together? He might enjoy telling us his side of the story. We don't even know his nick name yet! ???
Even less to scale than most people realize. While the UP Big Boy weighs 1,300,00 pounds, the HO model is one 87th as long and one 87th as wide and one 87th as tall, so a true scale model would be less than two pounds. Any pipe on the model have one 87th the diameter or a cross section that is one 9409th the size and easily crushed when you touched it. If you take any fasteners that are used and imagine a verson that is 87 times larger in three dimensions you see that it is hard to stay in scale. There is a distinct advantage to this scaling. Because a structure like a trestle is one 87th as long it doesn't have the potential movement (sway) of a real trestle and doesn't need to be as strong. Additionally the cross dimension of the support structure will be reduced by 87 * 87 while the size (and weight) of the trains it must support will be reduced by 87 * 87 * 87. Fortunately we can hide items under our layouts, like switching machines that would be huge if they were 87 times large in three dimensions.
