I like the new plan. I think it will be nice to step into the room and have all that space. So now for another question about the design. You've already claimed a really nice chunk of real estate for your layout. What about the vertical aspect? How high or how low are you willing to let the scenery go? You could create some real drama in there with a nice big river gorge to cross.
I got to thinking about this Tony K issue and here's what I think...for what it's worth. Tony is providing a pinnacle level in operations, if you will. What he is describing or teaching is in his opinion (which is what he is being paid for) what is/are the best way(s) to build and operate a model railroad. If you sway from what he is saying, then you have not measured up to that mark. Now, who really cares?!?! I don't think he's saying "you suck, you're no good" he's just making a statement about where the pinnacle is, good-bad-or indifferent. It doesn't mean we have to reach his level to enjoy our trains. It doesn't mean we have to do what he says. He's just defining the pinnacle, according to him (which again, is what he's being paid for). I like knowing where the "mark" is. While I may never reach it, at least I have a gauge to go by (make mine N-guage ). Tony has been very helpful to me in understanding an aspect of the hobby that I enjoy, more so now after reading his books and articles. I’ve never been offended by him because I never thought he was high browing. I took it for what it’s worth, and to me having a good operational understanding is worth a lot.
If I didn't live in my layout room I'd definately consider making a lift-out section and around the wall layout. The lift-out can stay out for a long time if you're just doing layout building and not operating the full main line. You get so much more main line with broader curves that way. Flash's gate is the perfect solution. I don't like crawl unders though, because one day you're going to bump it badly with your head, and the trains (possibly a LOT of them in staging) could get knocked over. It might also irritate the layout visitors.
RE: Personalities, My father was likely a creative genius electrical engineer. He did not play nicely with others. He knew he was right and would not compromise. You either liked him or couldn't stand him. As such he was fired from: Lockheed, NASA, Brown and Root, Teledyne Philbrik, and Analog Devices. Then again I have known people who could tell you “where to go” and you would look forward to the journey. It ain’t what you say, it is how you say it.
Indeed Steve.... I just irritate the crap out of people 98.5% of the time, then every now and then do something nice for em, just to keep em guessing (and stop myself getting fired).
Sorry for hijacking this thread - my apologies. Its just over time I have read an incredible amount of negativity towards Tony K and the preceding post clicked it off in my brain. I think what I will do on Monday (more likely to see it) is the start another post about Tony K so others can join in without taking away from your thread. My one piece of advise on planning is no matter how good your new plan is, set it aside for about three months to see if you still like it and to give it a chance to perk in your brain. Don't be surpised if at the end of that time, you end up modifying it.
I'm tired of the I hate Tony K dialogue. It runs very similar to people who complain about a bad TV show. If you just shut up and pick up the remote you can change the channel. Same goes for Tony K. Just stop reading and everything will be ok.
Don't worry about it, I have hijacked more threads in my Internet life than I care to remember. In fact I used to have a reminder to myself in my sig not to do so. Be well. Steve Oh, and thanks for the advice. I have been day dreaming about this plan for 25 years at least and working on it in earnest for 8 months. Thanks to the denizens of Train Board my dreams will come to fruition.
I've got a duck-under on my layout that I'm building right now. I've got about 6' of width clear, and 48" of clearance. There's plenty of room for people to twist sideways and go under instead of going under straight on and plowing their head on the benchwork. I plan on carpeting the underside when I'm done for that occasional time when brains hit the wall. Right now I'm flexible enough it works fine. 15 or 20 years from now I may regret it, but it was the ONLY way to build what I wanted right now. Mark in Utah, age 46
OK, then, back to the topic at hand. This thread is very timely as I may have pointed out. The night before last I installed the forth side of my layout. The whole thing measures 7' x 11' in a 10'x11' room so you get the picture. The last side was to have a divider that split the 2' wide frame into an 18" and 6" segment allowing for a yard/staging and a branch line. When working the yard I'd be on the outside of the layout. While working the branch and the rest of the RR I'd be on the inside. This made a duck under at 52" which isn't bad. But last night while popping in and out I got fed up with the duck under. No need to wait three weeks or three months to decide. I'm pushing the last side all the way to the wall. There will be a small gate (Thank you, Flash!!!!) at the room entrance. Problem solved! Thanks to everyone who posted their remarks. The majority was overwhelmingly influential!!!!
Espeeman: A duck under is a backache waiting to happen. It should be avoided at all costs. This is from the June MR in the RPO column. WARNING : underpass "I didn't believe it! Five layouts in the April MR, and every one of them required passing under part of the layout to work on or operate it. A drop bridge is needed on page 45, a crawl under on page 57, a duck under on page 62 (although with an ample 60" clearance) and a hinged bridge on page 83. Only the inverted RR on page 9 can be approached in a standing position. Layout planners should be reminded of a variation on the old saw that nothing is certain but bodily deterioration and taxes. When I built my layout I was 46, and a 37" high 12" long duckunder was no problem. Now I'm 66, and that duckunder is one of the worst model railroading mistakes I've ever made. Peerhaps a warning similar to the cautions about using solvents and high voltage should accompany any track plan that includes an "underpass". " Author, New York Enough said about duck unders..... Have fun replanning your layouts... Stay cool and run steam.....
seeing as i'm a 41 year old with a bad back. I will heed the advice of powersteam on this one. BTW- Anyone out there with a bad back, go join a yoga class. I cured my problems that nothing else could through meditation and excercise. I did Bikram or hot yoga. It is amazing. If it wasn't for yoga i'd have ended up getting surgery. I was already losing nerve function to the point that I could not feel my left foot anymore. Ok , getting off my soap box now.
I have an open and flexible mind. Some things are not obvious to everyone. There was a time when some folks believed the Earth was flat. I question everything I can't see the answer too. I am grateful to the folk who humor em. :
Well, ya know how it is. Give an inch take a mile. N-scale give so many more liberties than the larger scales so when designing my layout I tried to use the room for multipurpose which restricted the size of the layout, hence the duck under. But since the lower end of the framing is at 52" I can utilize the space under the layout for other things. Now the layout can stretch the entire parameter of the room. [ May 30, 2005, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: espeeman ]
Well, this has pretty well been thrashed to death, but I may as well throw in my experience. When the train room in my new house was completed 2 1/2 years ago, I designed the track plan with a duck under of only about 5 inches in width with a clearance of 44 inches. After the initial construction excitement, progress on the whole pike slowly ground to a halt. It was pretty clear to me early on that I simply hated the duckunder. Ripping it out necessitated major reconstruction and a complete rejigging of the track plan and the operational scheme. In some respects, it is not as good, but progress has been steady, albeit slow, ever since. Not mention my back feels a lot better! David (age 53)
Agility decreases with age. What was a simple maneuver when I was 40 is now difficult at 57. Could I even contemplate running up to a shoreline and doing a double flip before hitting the water? No, I end up with a half-flip, burying my head ignobly in the sand -- at best. My mother-in-law, a mobile 92 years old, can't be more than 4'-10" these days; getting her under even a 4'-8" duck-under requires two grown men to make sure she doesn't fall. Avoid the duck-under. Period. You will hate it.
