radius question.

firemanchip Nov 25, 2006

  1. firemanchip

    firemanchip TrainBoard Member

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    I am getting ready to disassemble my existing layout which is 50% complete because I am not happy with it. I have 18 degree turns and #4 turnouts. It is a 4' by 9' cookie cutter style. My room is 11' by 13'. I think I can do better with an around the room style. I want to know how much space is required to do 22 and 24 degree complete turn arounds. How do I draw these turns on a plan? What is the optimal height? How far from the wall is normal? In other words I need alot of help. Thanks for any advice you have to offer.

    Thanks; Chip
     
  2. fsm1000

    fsm1000 TrainBoard Member

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    Two feet is about maximum reach, although for corners it can be a bit more if you are comfortable and /or tall.
    I assume you mean 22 to 24 inch radius. If you do then that is a good one to work with as your trains will look much better.
    An around the room layout works best if there are no duckunders. Your age and back and knees will tell you how well that works..

    Hieght would be about 4 inches below your armpit for the best viewing AND working on the layout. For viewing only then should hieght, but then the depth is reduced to a foot or less.

    As for making plans. Try it out on a simple piece of paper but later for full size I used big sheets of newsprint, or large paper from a store [like Staples or Office Depot] or simply taped a lot of small pieces together.

    For making radii I used an old yardstick that I drilled holes into to fit two pencils. I used this to make my radius on the plans.

    Also don't forget to put in easements into the curves to help prevent derailments.

    I have more info on my website if you are interested.

    Hope that answers some of your questions. I am sure others will be able to add more ideas for you. :)
    Enjoy :)
     
  3. watash

    watash Passed away March 7, 2010 TrainBoard Supporter In Memoriam

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    We usually define curves by radius for our layouts. 18" radius is a 'Standard' the manufacturers decided on years ago when 00 in Europe was popular, and came over here as HO (supposed to be half of '0' guage), but is too tight except for 4 axle cars and engines. your mentioned a curve by 'degrees'. Real railroads survey their track by degrees. a 20° real curve is about 54" radius in HO scale, see? That is the tightest, or sharpest curve a Big Boy steam engine would go around in real life.
    That should give you some idea of how our space saving 18" radius track compares to the real thing.
    If we had an aircraft hanger to put our layouts in, we could have excellent operation with no derailing worries at all.
    If you do not make excellent track, you will be in constant trouble trying to get trains to run, so take your time as you go, and be sure you make the largest curves you have room for, and do not use less than #6 size turnouts.
    a 20" curve is better than an 18", and a 24" or 30" is best for long cars and 6 axle engines.
    I went to an Appliance Store and got one of the big boxes they ship refrigerators in, laid it on the floor and marked the centerline of my layout's track on it full size.
    Like Stephen says, use a stick or Trammel to layout your curves and you will be alright. Think BIG! :D
     
  4. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

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    Here's something to thing about. Radius is half the distance for a 180 degree turn. ie turned completely around. Therefore, the full dimension is twice that, so 22" radius curve will make a complete turn in 44 inchs. 24" in 48" 30" radius is 60".
     
  5. watash

    watash Passed away March 7, 2010 TrainBoard Supporter In Memoriam

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    Also remember to leave some space for your longest car or engine to hang out over the rails and not hit the wall on curves. I allowed 4" from center of track to the wall to be sure an clear my Big Boys and still save some room for a bit of scenery at the wall. I am using 30" radius as a minimum, so could have had 3", but the extra inch allows for brush and trees to hide things.
     
  6. firemanchip

    firemanchip TrainBoard Member

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    Thanks for the help. How high off the floor are yours? I'm six feet tall. I have a short ladder for when the grand kids decide to help.I read alot about the different materials to use and alot of people mention they use homosote. I have looked in my area home centers but can't find it.

    thanks again; chip
     
  7. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

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    To add to what Watash just said, that radius is to track centerline, so outside tie to outside tie you've got to add what? 1.5" 2"?


    As for height, I'm 6'2" and my layout is 60" off the floor at the framing (which means more like 62" and above) This was a compromise, because I had to fit a lot of storage underneath and my back wouldn't tolerate a lower duckunder.

    So far I've been happy though I'll need a small step ladder to do some of the scenery.
     
  8. watash

    watash Passed away March 7, 2010 TrainBoard Supporter In Memoriam

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    My layout is 30" off the floor because my health requires I sit in a chair to operate the layout. This height also allows me to reach over 29" and grasp a derailed car without having to lean on the layout.
    YOHO is correct at 1-1/2" tie to tie between parallel tracks, but you may have to alter this to allow enough space for your fingers to fit between box cars sitting side by side, see?
    Also remember the over-hang of an articulated engine that might strike a car when going over a turnout on a yard siding, or crossover. Remember the cab also swings out a ways too.
    I finally learned to experiment with this sort of thing on a flat surface, before laying track.

    I have never used Homosote. Most of us use construction foam now days, much lighter and easier to work with. Keep in mind the floor loading unless you are in the basement. Plaster, large boards and Homosote get very heavy fast!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2006
  9. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member

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    Firemanchip:
    As others have noted, decisions regarding the best height for your layout will be influenced by your own height, length of reach, and physical condition, as well as by your prefered viewing height and working height.

    You may also want to consider the interactions between the height of your shelf and the height of your scenery, and how those interactions will affect maintenance and viewing.

    Regarding maintenance:
    If you have 2 to 4 inch tall structures near the front of the shelf, then the top of the structures should probably be a little below your armpit so you can safely reach over them to reach the middle or back of the shelf. Toward the back half of the shelf, 2 to 4 inch tall trees or structures might make it impossible (or "very challenging", at best) to reach any tracks behind them, unless you are standing well above the layout or unless the structures or trees are very easily removed and replaced. If you shine a flashlight from your eye level onto the layout, any track in the shadow behind buildings or trees, will be hard to reach or maintain. The higher the shelf, the larger the space behind the structures/trees that will be difficult to get to.

    Regarding viewing:
    If you are standing at the front edge of a 48" high shelf, you will be able to look down at a relatively steep angle on buildings and tracks near the front of the layout, so you'll be able to see action going on behind low buildings. However, 2 to 4 inch tall trees or structures at the back of your layout will effectively hide a track running deep in the shelf, because your viewing angle will be so much more shallow.
    [This could be an asset if you want to deliberately hide tracks. When hiding tracks on purpose, always use easily removeable structures or view blocks so that maintenance can be performed without putting structures/scenery at risk.]

    If you raise the level of the shelf closer to your eye level, to what some refer to as "model railfanning" height, then even very low buildings at the front of the shelf will prevent you from seeing anything at the middle or back of the layout.

    On my own layout, I have multiple levels (mostly 48" and 65"). The upper level can be viewed from model railfanning height by standing on the floor, but I also use step stools and home-made 12" benches to view the higher shelf, especially during operating sessions (coupling and uncoupling cars, and throwing groundthrows). The benches put the upper level's functional height at 53". When doing maintenance at the back of the upper shelf, I often use a short step ladder with wide steps to get even higher above the upper level and reach deeper into the shelf without jeopardizing scenery or structures in front.

    Your selection of optimal shelf height might be affected by who will be operating on your layout, too. I have a number of nieces and nephews in grade school and an 8 y/o member in our operating group who cannot view the upper level too easily due to being so short. I also have senior model railroading friends who have balance and mobility concerns that put them at risk stepping up and down from the benches. To accommodate them, I've increased the industries and scenery on the lower levels (which I had originally intended for staging yards without scenery or industries and just limited scenery along long mainlines that had no sidings).
     
  10. firemanchip

    firemanchip TrainBoard Member

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    thanks. great help.
     
  11. watash

    watash Passed away March 7, 2010 TrainBoard Supporter In Memoriam

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    Dave is right on it, firemanchip!

    I tried a multi-level layout once, and had about the same variety of people involved that Dave described. Mostly club members, and some family too.

    From sad experience, I had to move my staging tracks to the top level where 'little fingers' couldn't reach, and put most of the scenery on the mid level, and just 'fun' tracks for the kiddies on the lower level.

    After I moved away, I haven't desired more than I could enjoy running 'alone'.

    Over the last 60 years I have grown to cringe when some visitor says, "Hey I want to show Junior your trains!"
    I usually refuse, even though it sometimes makes hard feelings.

    It has been a hard fight with family and club members to keep what I have, so I make no apologies for how I now feel about it.

    You will learn in time, that a shirt sleeve or cuff, or your suit coat will roll cars and engines off onto the floor after you have reached across the layout, then straighten up again. You will sooner or later do it yourself, but only once, but visitors and their kids, you will be surprised how many!

    I could tell you tales that would curl your hair about visitors!

    It seems even some fellow modelers, without even asking first, will take the liberty to pick up something, (even custom engines), off a guy's layout, and of course it gets damaged or dropped on the floor while you are screaming at him to not touch it!

    It is not at all funny when none of them have ever offered to pay for repairs, or to replace it, or even apologize for their audacity! You can't sue them successfully either, and it is not nice to simply shoot them or their kid, too many witnesses. Every club has at least one stuffed shirt big shot with a spoiled brat. He wont let you see his layout at home, but wants to show his kid your layout as if you owed it to him. The kid suddenly picks up one of your engines to show his dad and says, "Look I want one like this!" Of course all the cars the engine was pulling come off over the side and fall in a heap on the floor, and the kid drops the engine, that lands on its nose and is destroyed! The big shot dad grabs the brat's arm and scolds him for embarrassing his dad, and drags him off to paddle him without so much as and word to you standing there dumb struck seeing your whole train destroyed before you can move.

    How do you feel about losing the engine it took two years to build, as well as all the cars you super detailed? For get it, it was your privilege to contribute the whole thing to the enjoyment of the brat! Lady's purses are a menage to trains and scenery too, watch out for them!

    Memories can be bad, I better stop before I get really angry!
     
  12. Wolfgang Dudler

    Wolfgang Dudler Passed away August 25, 2012 TrainBoard Supporter In Memoriam

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    Watash,

    I must say in all the FREMO meetings there were not many exaccidents. Our son dropped a car from the Westport barge when shipping to a table.
    It was a new build and weathered hopper car with etched walkway. The owner could repair it and got from my son a self made scrap loading for a gondola.
    I dropped a whole passenger train 3 feet to the carpet! I forgot the pictures I've laid at the track!!!!!

    Wolfgang
     
  13. Cleggie

    Cleggie TrainBoard Member

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    Hi Chip,

    Your room is similar in size to mine and you are right a round the walls bench layout is a good option. Watash, Yoho & ppuinn have given some good advice regarding curves, radius and other layout design issues.

    Drawing full size on cardboard is an interesting idea. I use a scale rule drawing my plans on A4 paper. Others I know just wing it, with no real plan at all. The big thing is, it is your hobby and yours to enjoy:teeth:

    The return loop on my layout is 51" at the widest point. That creates problems with access. You need to be careful as others have noted, making sure you can reach all of your track work.

    Cheers, Ken.
     
  14. firemanchip

    firemanchip TrainBoard Member

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    great advice guys I am in the process of tearing apart my old one at this time. I am also trying to draw a new plan as well. As soon as I figure out how to put pictures on here I would like to put some of my ideas on here for your oppinions.
     
  15. Black Cloud

    Black Cloud TrainBoard Member

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    For the duckunders, I've found that using an old computer chair (like the one you're on now- buy a new one for computer use) to 'sit & scoot' under the layout makes things a lot easier for those of us that carry a few more years, or a few more pounds, than other less jovial souls.
     

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