After numerous attempts at a layout, I am again asking for help. Let me start with what I am looking for in the layout. I would like to run 2 trains at a time. I wish to have a 2 have layout. The upper layout would be continuous running with a turnout (not shown) heading to part unknown. The lower level would be the more complicated part. I would like to have a small staging yard, a few industrial spurs and engine storage. The turn table is an option. Scan 1 below is a quick drawing of these ideas. The room is 136” x 110”. I have an entry door, window and closet door that will limit the layout to 136” x 70”. All the designs I have work have been based off of a folded bog bone similar to this one in scan 2. The layout will be against the wall on 3 sides. 70” is a long reach, so a lift out section or crawl under will be needed. I am planning to build this layout in sections to allow for moving and expansion if I’m ever lucky enough to get a bigger space. I am a BIG fan of the CB&Q and the transition to the BN days. I grew up outside of Chicago, so I am looking for the urban look to the layout. If I had enough space, I would model the triple track and Clyde Hump in Cicero. I am going to stay with HO for 2 reasons. First, I have 25+ locomotives and I believe more coming from family for Christmas, as well as over 100 freight cars. The second and most important, I am getting arthritic in my hands from years of abuse on the job. At times, I have troubles putting HO on the tracks. Locomotives: GP-38-2’s, SD-40-2’s, GP-35’s & GP-9’s. Rolling stock: 57’ mechanical reefers, 40’ & 50’ boxcars, coal cars and 62’ tanks. Future addition of passenger cars to pull behind an Athearn Genesis F3 AB set. I have a few well cars with containers, but they won’t run on this layout. As far as track, I wish to stay with 22” radius turns for the mainline and 18” for industrial sidings. I wish to control all switches from a central location and wish to add signals once I have something established. DCC is not an option as I have 1 in college and another headed that way. DCC is at least 8-10 years away. I hope I have provided enough information on my thought process and I am open to any ideas to make this layout fun for the ages. Thanks. John
I would think again about DCC. Running an engine with sound and light is another level. Switching with your ears is fun. So you need only one engine to have fun and to listen. Wolfgang
Yeah I'll second the DCC favoritism. Once you actually try it out, its pretty cool. Also, you can start small. the type of layout you are designing would work well with any of the starter systems.
John, Can you use the whole room? Around the walls with a duckunder or swing/lift gate entry would be a lot better, and allow you to run your biggest roling stock on wide curves. You seem resigned to a crawl under for access, but I bet your back would prefer something else...! I also would recommend you at least look at and price DCC versus DC for this layout. For DC, you'll need one power pack for each train that runs simultaneously, plus the wiring, electrical switches and so on. With DCC, you'd need a decoder for each loco you want to run on a regular basis, but only one control system. Both are getting cheaper every day - so much so that you should delay your purchase as long as possible With DCC, you can also (eventually) add computer control for signalling, train movements, turnout control and so on - leading towards your "Centralized Traffic Control" that you say you want. I like the idea of modular/sectional benchwork that can be moved at a future date. Here's a link to a friend of mine who is building an On30 layout the same way: http://www.oapsry.com/cvr/index.html Click the construction blog to see lots of good pictures. For handling/rerailing HO, you should try one of those plastic rerailers. I tried one at the club last meet, and they work well... First try every time! If your trackwork is solid, you should not have to worry too much about getting things back on the track - unles you run a switch or have a cornfield meet Do you have a sketch of the whole room with accurate dimensions for windows, doors, cupboards? Andrew
Ok. It sound like DCC is the ultimate direction I need to head. I know nothing about it. What does a basic set up cost to run say 5 engines? And how does it work? The idea of someday having Centralized Traffic Control is it. An entire layout controlled from a laptop.
To run 5 engines simultaneously, you'll need a system that can handle that power draw. E.g. at .5 amps each, you'll need 2.5 amps minimum. You could start with something like the Digitrax Zephyr, but you may want to go a bot bigger right away - say to the Super Empire builder with Radio. That way. you'll never need to "upsize" your DCC system. There's lots of good information about DCC in general, and a number of different manufactures available through Tony's Train Exchange, Litchfield Station, or Loy's Toys. Tony's probably has the best info for a beginner (google for all web sites... ). Digitrax offers a computer interface called JMRI (I think). My knowledge of this is limited though, so you'll definitely want to check it out yourself. A basic setup to run 5 engines simultaneously would require a DCC system (booster/power and control system) plus three dual control throttles (at two trains per throttle) or 5 throttles. You only need as many throttles as trains that will run simultaneously. You will also need a decoder in each locomotive. Prices are coming down all the time. Check at the above sites. If you think that the price is high, remember that to run 5 trains simultaneously with DC control, you need to wire the layout into at least 10 blocks, have a myriad of electric wiring, toggle switches, and one power pack for each train. DCC wiring is much simpler, even with reverse loops and other "tricky" spots. It really does allow you to drive thre loco, rather than feed electricity to the right section of track at the right time... Hope that helps. Let's talk about that track plan some more... Andrew
John, Following on Andrew's comments, here is a link to Tony's website that compares systems. http://www.tonystrains.com/productcompare/dcccomparison.htm I wholeheartedly agree with my collegues, go DCC from the get go, you'll never regret it. I would recommend doing some local research of hobby shops, surely one will have expertise in DCC, you should buy from them if you can as, a) it's important we support the local guy and b) if you need assistance, they are right there for you. But if cost is an issue, don't let that scare you off, you can find top notch items on ebay for fractions of their original cost. Michael
I will try to post a drawing of the room with measurements and locations of closets, windows and doors tonight sometime. We have had a few breakdowns at the power plant, so I have been living at work trying to get the power plant back online.
John - before making the decision to go with DCC or not, I would grab the Atlas HO King-Size Layout Book (about $11.00). Make sure it's the newer version that has been updated to include Atlas Master DCC wiring instructions. This might help you decide which way to go. I started out in the early 1970's using DC with cab (block) control. Several layouts later in both HO and N, I'm still using that same basic design. I will probably go to DCC some day - but that day is a little ways off yet. I'm like you - I just put one through college, got a year break, and then sent my other son off to school this fall. What I have to consider is that I have a lot of locomotives that will need decoders, and there is a cost factor involved. On the other hand, maybe I should consider all new loco purchases this way - buy DCC equiped, or convert as I aquire - again a cost factor - buy DCC chips one at a time or buy 20 at a time? Here are some reference prices from the latest Micro-Mark catalog: Prodigy-Advance System $198.95 Additional Prodigy-Advance handheld cab $74.95 Power booster unit $116.25 Locomotive Decoder $17.95 Sound decoder $89.95 Most layouts that I visit can be operated either DC or DCC, but then I'm the only guy able to run on a DCC layout at that time with "old" DC equipment. I do have a couple sound equipped locos that work just fine on DC - but I do understand the increased benefits of going to DCC with sound. I continue to believe that there are added frustrations with DCC - and the learning curve involved - that can distract from the fun of starting a first layout and getting trains up and running. I know a guy right now who built his layout to operate DC or DCC - he's having so many problems with his DCC stuff (probably due in part to the fact that DCC does seem more finicky with dirty track) that he is seriously considering going back to DC only. I had considered going to DCC on my N layout, but started doing the math of acquiring decoders, a command station, generators, hand controllers as opposed to using the existing DC power packs I have and only needing to procure double pole double throw center off toggle switches - DC won. And a major consideration is that I just don't have the spare time to attempt to install decoders - particularly in N.
I realize that this is not the greatest picture of the room, but it shows the dimensions and placement of the obstacles.
9x11 room - lots of space to do something more than just an oval. I guess the basic question is whether you want to cross the window, closet and main door? If so, you can go around the walls, but will need duckunders or liftout sections for access. If you do not want to, then you are restricted tot he footprint in your drawings in the first post. If you do go around the walls, you may avoid the need for two levels. Even if you stick to two levels, it would also make it easier by giving you more space to create the grade that you will need to get between them. One of my favourite layouts of about this size is Mike Hamer's Boston & Maine, as seen in GMR and MRP a few years ago. Here's a link: http://www.ovar.ca/Mike Hamer/Hamer.htm and his blog: http://bostonandmaine.blogspot.com/. I have operated this layout on several occasions, and it is great. Packs a lot of action into a relatively small space, but it does not feel cramped at all. As for the DC vs DCC question, I think it is a toss-up here. While you do have some locos that will need decoders, you do not have an existing layout to "convert". While running two engines is a relatively simple affair in DC, running 5 simulanteously will require extensive wiring, rotary switches, and 5 powerpacks. By the time you figure all that out, and purchase it, I'd not be surprised if you arrive at the cost of a reasonable DCC system, especially if you factor in your time. And even if you did have a layout wired for DC, you can simply toggle all your switches for one cab, and hook the DCC system in there. Andrew
I would like to keep the closet access free as it is "overflow" for my wifes and daughters closets. They will be in and out of it on a regular basis. I can block some of the window, but wish to keep some of it open. I am not a big fan of the ovals, but don't totally dislike them. I am open to any ideas to satisfy my wishes and provide focal interest. I have seen some creative ideas here and am hoping for ideas. My thoughts are to keep 2 independent loops. The upper loop would be for more or less continuous running. To add elements of interest, I was thinking of adding a few small yard tracks. I could run a thru freight on this loop. I also have a F3 A/B set with 3 coaches to run on this loop also. That was the thinking with the back track. The track towards the front would be on some type of open deck girder or plate bridge. On the lower loop, I would like to incorporate an engine facility and a few sidings for industry. That way I can perform switching an display some of the many locomotives on the layout. If there is a way to connect the 2 levels, I am all for that. It would provide some continuity to the layout. Somewhere I need to incorporate 1 or 2 tracks that head off the mains. I have a nice SW7 switcher, in CB&Q colors. I want to use it as much as possible. I was thinking of 2 locomotive consists because I like the look over a single locomotive. That's the reason I mentioned running 5 locomotives. Hope this helps. John
Is there any way to consolidate the closet contents? If access has to remain to the closet, etc, then you are probably right that you will be limited to a loop (or something) the size of what you have drawn. The argument about the two levels seems a bit incongruous to me (and maybe it is just me...). But you've described the upper level as a continuous loop with sidings for interest, and the lower loop as switching, but with a loop for continuous running...?? To travel between those two levels, you'd need 400" (over 33 feet) to achieve a separation of just 12 inches (at a grade of 3% - reasonably steep). That would give you a practical separation of only about 8" after benchwork for the upper level is accounted for. You can use a helix, but it would take up about 1/3 to 1/2 of the space you have available. One other option is to keep them separate, and transfer trains between levels using "cassettes" or some other carrying device. My advice for track planning is to go back to your initial thoughts: and see how you might lay out that specific track and yard given the space you have. As you learn more about the features you want to include, a track plan may begin to suggest itself to you. This has been my experience. Are you planning to have industries for the coal cars, reefers, etc? Or do you want to switch them in a yard? I could see a yard on a long dunckunder across the room, with an industrial section of town against the wall. An 18" wide section will support a small yard with 6 tracks or so. This will leave about 2 1/2 feet for an "operator pit", assuming you need about 24 inches of depth against the wall to create the industrial sector. One last comment - if you are running two switchers (or any two engines) together, DC will treat them as one as easily as DCC. While they are in the same block, they will move at (approximately) the same speed, and in the same direction. Of course with DC, you cannot drive one engine out to lash-up with another. I hope that helps. Keep the thoughts and comments coming. Merry Christmas! Andrew
On my "Albemarle Division" layout, I was "allowed" by the boss to build across one wall of the large room (also like a family room) in our basement. There is a small room adjacent to that room separated by a closet. The Mrs. has extra pillows, towels, sheets, blankets, and the extra table leaves in there. I built a loop in that room w/ a coal branch on top of the loop. I ran the connecting tracks through one end of the closet that allowed storage to be maintained. The Mrs. was "not happy" when the tunnel crew condemned that end of the closet. But, that was 5 years ago and all is well now. That region on my layout is named "Amario de Madre" which is Italian for "Mom's Closet"
I think I am going to go with the 2 loop idea for now. The price for further acquisition of real estate is too high to pay. The closet is full of clothes and shoes. I know it is hard to tell the difference, but how do I create the focal interest in the lower loop? That would be the blue colored track. I can't seem to figure this out due to my lack of experience with layout design. I agree that it will be 2 hard to connect the 2 loops with the amount of space provided, so that's gone. I am interested in the concept you mentioned, but can't visualize the layout? Does it allow for 2 train operation, 1 continuous and 1 switching? I need to get back to the drawing board and try to think this out. John
Decided to scape the entire thing and start with a clean sheet of paper. I just realized that I can't reach the back of the layout. Is it suppose to be this difficult? Are my expectations and wishlist too high for the amount of space I have to work with?
Here is another idea that will incorporate many of the items I wish. It is a departure from earlier ideas. I need some help to fine tune it. I need to figure out how to access all parts of the layout. I would like to add additional yard or storage space to the layout. I puts everything on the same elevation, and incorporates switching and continuous operations. I will add a spur to bring a train in from off the layout. What needs to be accounted for with this design? With a DC system, can the layout be set up that sections of track are only powered when the switch is lined up to the section? If I go with a DCC system, this should not be a concern.
After looking at this and the other ideas, my daughter liked the first drawing the best because everything could be reached. She made a few suggestions to make it look better and said we could add roads, smaller buildings and even a small river (stream). Everything is on one level, but the yard/siding tracks will need some work. There will be more buildings added. She said the power plant needs to stay since I work at one. I will need to add the supporting structures. I dropped in some larger buildings for a visual reference. The warehouse will most likely be changed to an Old Style brewery. I want to start building after Christmas. I have 2 questions: 1. Since I have yet to decide on DC or DCC, will it matter in the construction of the track? 2. Can anyone think of something that I really need to address in this layout other than connecting the 2 loops somehow? The most important reason for choosing this design is she likes it and wants to help me build it. Any time a 14 year old wants to spend time with her dad, that just can't be beat.
