Con-Cor ALCO PA / PB-1 Diesel

Mr X Feb 3, 2007

  1. N_S_L

    N_S_L TrainBoard Member

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    My ConCor PA/Bs are really nice locos, and not so loud neither...

    One heck of a puller too... DCC conversion is on my to-do list

    I'm happy with them... but I've never owned a Kato (maybe if I'm happy I shouldn't get a Kato?)
     
  2. r_i_straw

    r_i_straw Mostly N Scale Staff Member

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    Well if they are still using the old chassis, here is a breakdown of the parts and where the Conducta Lube should go. The truck frames are shown without the wheels.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Mr X

    Mr X TrainBoard Member

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    Well I think I will try this Conducta lube and see what happens. Thank you for providing me with the picture of where it goes.

    Glenn had a good point. They may be 'new', but I truly would never know how long they have been sitting around on the shelf.

    In general, is this where you should place the lubricant in all diesel locomotives? At the center plate where it fits into the locomotive and on the axels of the wheels? Maybe this is the issue with the Life Like locomotive as well.

    N_S_L, if you are happy with what you have you should not get a Kato engine. For one you are satisfied with what you have now and for the other you maybe disappointed in what you lived with for so long once you did run a Kato engine.
     
  4. jaythespoon

    jaythespoon Permanently dispatched

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    Con-Cor's PA was a benchmark locomotive in N-Scale when it made its appearance in the mid-60s. It was advertised as being manufactured by a (Japanese) company called Sekisui - or, perhaps, Sekesui - which turned out to be Kato. Kato continued to be Con-Cor's chief N-Scale supplier until the two companies had a falling out in the late-70s - early-80s. Originally offered only as an "A" unit there were numerous articles in the early '70s about kitbashing "B" units. Con-Cor began importing manufactured "B" units sometime in the early '70s.

    I never owned one but, as has been stated, they were a bit on the noisy side and I'm not sure anyone ever figured out how to quiet them down. I own a DL109 which was built on the same mechanism as the PA only by the time I bought mine the name Sekisui had disappeared into the netherworld somewhere. I have presumed that these later units such as you appear to own are manufacturered in China as has been stated; I would expect them to be somewhat noisier than Kato. A product review somewhere at sometime in the past, however, failed to address the discrepancies you outline in your post.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2007
  5. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    Con Cor PA's by Kato?

    Jaythespoon and all tuned in,

    Disclaimer: The following is not a put down to Jaytheperson. I'm simply and respectfully requesting further disclosure as to his source of information.

    And so I'm asking, where did you get your information? It appears I may have missed something along the way. Follow me on this....

    All this talk about Kato building the first PA's got me curious. If my PA was built by Kato... and it is allegedly from the first run,... then you will need to explain to me why it says, on the roof interior of the shell, "Made in China" and I can't find a "Kato" credit anywhere on the locomotive. When I bought this unit Kato was a unknown. Further more Kato is Japanese not Chinese. If Kato put out the original Con Cor PA's,... during a timeline when I worked in a LHS...I'm wondering how I missed it? In my opinion, Con Cor's PA's have never been anything more or less then what they are today. The one thing these units do is pull well. I'l give them that. Otherwise, they are noisy despite all the cleaning and lube I've put them threw. I took the gears out and cleaned up the plastic flashing using a file to remove it. I'm certain I've tried everything to get these to run better. Kato built? You mentioned another company "Seikisui". Is this a Japanese or Chinese manufacturer? Am I to understand a Chinese company built these for Kato, and they palmed them off to ConCor? Share what you can with me and thanks in advance.

    Puzzled in Big Bear >:)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2007
  6. r_i_straw

    r_i_straw Mostly N Scale Staff Member

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    Here is the box one of mine came in. Sekisui and Kato are one in the same.
    [​IMG]
    On the inside of the shell it says "Made in Japan".
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Mr X

    Mr X TrainBoard Member

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    It looks like I have sparked quite a debate here.

    Seriously I do not have a problem with noise with the engine. My issue is with the lunges in power and the jerkyness of the engine. Make a comparison to a car. Stomp on the gas real hard to the floor then slide your foot over to wear the gas pedal comes all the way off. Then stomp on it again. That is what the engine does.

    I am unsure if only cleaning and lubricating will do the job. I would like to get more suggestions on what all my possibilities are and what else may be wrong. If these are the only two types of maintenance I can do or should be done then let me know. Or do I just have POS engine???

    Then we can continue with the manufacturer debate.:teeth:

    Thanks for the help...
     
  8. r_i_straw

    r_i_straw Mostly N Scale Staff Member

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    It almost sounds like the gears are binding somewhere. Or the motor looses contact periodically. I have played with these engines for over thirty years and have always been able to get the bugs out of them one way or another. It would be fun to be able to take a look at it and see what the problem really is.:teeth:
     
  9. Mr X

    Mr X TrainBoard Member

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    Solution Found!

    As stated by r_i_straw "Or the motor looses contact periodically."

    That got me really thinking of what could be the issue because this seemed to hit it on the head. I have figured it out. :teeth: It is fixed and runs smooth as a button. Like I said, I only have used it for less than an hour and it has been protected in a drawer when not in use. I do not know how it got this way BUT if any one runs into the same problem here was the issue.

    All of the pictures below highlight the front coupler. The first shows the proper position of the copper contact strip. (Runs parallel with the length of the engine) The second shows how the contact should ride next to the pick up from wheel set. The third and fourth pictures are duplicated with notes.

    I knew it must be dirty some how or must have gotten something stuck in it. So I took the engine to the cleaning brush that I have. Set it on the brush and it ran just fine, no jerking, sputtering or anything. Then I moved the brush to the front truck. It did not pick up any thing. I moved the engine around a little bit and it started to jump and not run as smooth. So, ah ha... problem narrowed down to the front truck. When looking at the front drive wheel set I noticed that the copper conductive plate had slide towards the center of the engine and was not making contact or good contact with wheel set.

    The reason for it jerking or speeding up and slowing down was simply as it the trucks turned in the curves on the layout depending which way it was turning it was making better or worse contact with the conductor strip.

    So I nudged the conductor back into place and it runs like a champion! Sorry after all this, it seemed like a fairly easy solution and one that I should not have over looked. But I did learn a couple of things that I most certainly am going to do for some of my older locomotives.

    Thank you for the help…now let the manufacturers debate commence! (I still like KATO engines – although this is my first Con-Cor and perhaps it will NOT be the last.)

    Mr X
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Bob Morris

    Bob Morris TrainBoard Supporter

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    I bought my E-L Con-Cor PA1 in 1974. The box says "Con-Cor" and the inside of the shell and the plastic center block (that holds the shell) both say "Made in Japan". There appear to be three separate metal castings numbered "2001-4" (top casting), "2001-5" (engineer's side bottom casting) and "2001-6" (other side casting).

    The front pilot was attached to the front truck in those days. The shell was misnumbered "4012" and the numbers were in yellow misplaced in the maroon paint. Still, for the early 70's it was light years ahead of the other offerings.

    According to the box the list price was $32.98.
     
  11. r_i_straw

    r_i_straw Mostly N Scale Staff Member

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    Whowah. Now that is a different mechanism than any I have seen. I have never seen phosphor bronze wiper strips under them before. So a new mechanism does exist. Cool.
     
  12. jaythespoon

    jaythespoon Permanently dispatched

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    Reading Lesson of the Day

    Having a little trouble with reading comprehension this morning there "Puzzled in Big Bear"?? Maybe that Cal State campus down in the flatlands has some kind of a remedial English program.

    My response SPECIFICALLY referenced those PA/PBs marketed by Con-Cor in THE 1960s AND 1970s!!! I stated specifically that I had no knowledge of this newer issue but I remember reading a product review somewhere and these performance issues addressed by the original poster had never been mentioned. No one would pretend (I guess) that the 'Made in China" PA/PBs are going to measure up to the "Made in Japan" ones of Kato, at least not at the present time. I simply stated that I had never heard of the troubles being addressed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2007
  13. N_S_L

    N_S_L TrainBoard Member

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    Mr X,

    Sorry for my comments which temporarily derailed your thread...

    glad you got it fixed!
     
  14. SecretWeapon

    SecretWeapon Passed away January 23, 2024 In Memoriam

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    Hey Mr. X,
    II hate to bring this to your attention,but the "radio equipped" decal was put on backwards. The bolt should be facing the front of the engine.:eek:mg:
     
  15. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    Remedial English?

    Ok Jay,

    Me thinks that was a put down and that's ok. I can take it. Writing is difficult for me. Despite it all....Thanks for comprehending my question and the info you shared. Back to the PA. In other words.

    What I should of said. You will have a difficult time getting me to swallow or believe... that the original ConCor order of the 60's and 70's was indeed Kato, or the former provider. My PA, locomotive purchased during the late 70's and another set in the early 80's, both sets are from the first run edition. Inside the body shell on all of them you can find "Made In China". Look inside the plastic body shell on the roof section. Further, there isn't any ID on the locomotive body or chassis, as to who manufactured it. May I conclude? It appears to me this locomotive has been mislabeled as a Kato.

    My two cents and I take change. How much fairer can that get?
     
  16. AB&CRRone

    AB&CRRone TrainBoard Supporter

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    Rick, and others, I just want to share some of my observations about the models built for Con-Cor that I have encountered through the years. Most of this is all prior to Kato USA being in existence.

    Yuji Kato was as modeler before he was a manufacturer. One of the first models he scratch-built as a modeler was a Santa Fe PA-1, in HO scale I think.

    As a manufacturer he produced numerous models for Con-Cor using the trade name Sekisui (Japan). Included were PA-1's, numerous freight cars, a few "shorty" passenger cars, the NYC style Hudson, the S-2 Northern, and perhaps others. They were among the finest models produced at the time, both in running qualities and in details.

    Kato ceased manufacturing models for Con-Cor (date unknown), and thereafter similar models were manufactured in China for Con-Cor. The line included most of the former models using the same or similar tooling. However, in my opinion, the powered models never quite measured up in running qualities to the ones manufactured by Kato.

    I own, or have owned, all of the Kato built powered models and quite a few of the others, the passenger cars being one exception. Subsequently I owned PA-1's, Hudsons, and the S-2 manufactured in China so I have had an actual basis for comparison. The only Kato-built model I owned that did not come up to snuff was the very first Hudson and it did not have tender pick up. Tender pick up was added to subsequent incarnations of the Hudson bringing it into the realm of excellent running models also.

    Ben
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2007
  17. Pete Nolan

    Pete Nolan TrainBoard Supporter

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    I agree totally with Ben's remarks, having had similar experiences.
     
  18. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    Now I have a better understanding.

    To conclusion: It is apparent that mine are a second generation of Chinese built PA's. I hate that when that happens.
     
  19. Flash Blackman

    Flash Blackman TrainBoard Member

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    Correct. Spookshow has the same information with dates of original manufacture and pictures supplied. Search Spookshow>Diesels>Plastic>Locomotive Model if the link first doesn't work.
     
  20. Mr X

    Mr X TrainBoard Member

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    SecretWeapon,

    Your statement really surprized me. How could they put that decal on backwards? What in the world were they thinking?

    Any way I guess the prototype EL employees sometimes had difficulty figuring out which way the strip went as well. Pictures below.

    OR did the EL lightning bolt strip change directions intentionally at some certain date?

    The picture in the middle is the engine which my Life Like PA1 is modeled after. Same road number and everything. Life-Like truely did have there decal backwards.

    Mr X
     

    Attached Files:

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