Why I LOVE traction tires

TexasNS Dec 22, 2007

  1. Ray Stilwell

    Ray Stilwell TrainBoard Member

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    Find me some prototype steam engines with traction tires and I'll be happy with them. They detract from a model in my opinion In addition, as stated earlier,
    traction tires have these drawbacks:

    - They look unrealistic
    - They collect A LOT of dirt
    - They need frequent maintenance
    - They need to be replaced when consumed
    - They need to be replaced when they get oval
    - They need to be replaced when the rubber dries out
    - They need to be replaced and you can't find the part for your loco

    That's enough reasons for not wanting them.

    I'm not at all convinced that there are not other economical solutions to the problem of pulling a decent train with a steamer. Let's ebcourage the manufacturers to find them rather than saying that traction tires are good enough.

    Ray
     
  2. skipgear

    skipgear TrainBoard Member

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    I still don't understand where the frequent maintainance and collects dirt statements come from.

    Example of my point:

    We have a very small display layout that runs 10 hours a day, 7 days a week at our shop. The loco we had previously run on it is a Bachmann 0-6-0, with traction tires. The loco ran for 4 months straight, approx. 1500 hours, with no degradation of the traction tires and no abnormal amount of cleaning. In fact, we are currently running a non tt diesel on the layout and it seems I have to clean it every other week. When we ran the 0-6-0, it wasn't touched till the loco eventually died (It wore through the side rods and wore the flanges on the drivers sharp as an Xacto knife).

    Modern equipment with current technology tires does not suffer from many of the problems cited above. Don't compare 20-30 year old equipment to items currently available.

    Also, the looks thing????? Many of the loco's you need to look real hard with the loco upside down in hand to even tell it has traction tires. That complaint just doesn't cut it with em.
     
  3. Grey One

    Grey One TrainBoard Supporter

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    I think the answer is a solid body chassis that fits under an MT reefer and has trucks that look like they belong on a reefer. There is a manufacture that will make a fortune from something like that.
     
  4. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    Now We Are Talking To The Choir

    Now we are talking to the choir as delivered by Ray Stilwell, "Let's encourage the manufacturers...." see above.

    TonyH., I do appreciate your response. I hate to burst the bubble. I have had some of the newer tires break (in extremely cold weather) and yes I have some units siting on the rip track waiting replacements, Con Cor being one of them. Sorry about that. I do realize this isn't likely to happen to everybody. My train shed isn't the safest place for a model railroad as it does get down below freezing...despite a frost watch heater.

    On another thought, the early traction tires did experience dirt accumulation. I've also seen that happen to the newer ones. Dirty Track = Dirty Wheels. I have a question: Are the new ones neoprene in composition?

    There is something else I need to bring to this discussion: If you oops and get WD40 on the newer TT's...it's over. Reminds me of the times steamers attempting to get a train rolling out of the ATSF, Barstow Station set and spun their wheels. That would be realistic in one sense of the word.

    I can't make a difference here guys unless we speak as one voice. I will keep campaigning for better steamers but my voice alone won't impress the model makers. It's in our collective hands! Corporately (as a group) it's up to US to demand a difference.

    Have fun!

    Duck and run for cover! Hurry...incoming!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2007
  5. AB&CRRone

    AB&CRRone TrainBoard Supporter

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    I never gave much thought to traction tires until a couple of manufacturers thought they could omit them and no one would notice. Fiasco, of course, but the two are back with traction tires.

    I think the voice spoke clearly.



    Ben
     
  6. denny99

    denny99 TrainBoard Member

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    Actually the best way to keep a layout clean is having a train running over and over and over :)

    You're right. My experience comes from pretty old Arnold equipment, though no more than 10 years old. Perhaps, even if the model is new, they used the same old stuff they sold 20 years ago. Those traction tires degraded a lot more than new ones and cause the loco to litterally "dance" on track.
    However I had dirty traction tires issues with newer equipment, as well. I had a couple of Minitrix Taurus that needed wheel cleaning quite often and the dirtiest thing was always the traction tire.
     
  7. bigpine

    bigpine TrainBoard Member

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    traction tires

    I've read the entire post,I have an KATO 2-8-2 that with out TT it is a pain in the A--.It is brand new I've had it for about an month,I put TT on it and it nows pulls supper,My layout is not real big,but has pretty steep grades on it,I have no Idea how many cars it will pull but I'am up to 20 so far,any more and it will chase its tail.I'am working on re-doing an Bachmann 4-8-4 nad have high hopes for it.It has TT on it and I'am installing an can motor and flywheel in It,I also have an bachmann 2-6-6-2 and a new Heartige 1000 2-8-8-2 that are next on the list!!
    MY2cents worth
    JIM
     
  8. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    There Was A Voice

    Ben and all tuned in,

    There was a voice that spoke out for non-traction tires and many of the model providers made efforts, to give us that. There is a small group of modelers (growing daily) who are doing their best to convince the providers to give us better pulling stoves (steam engines).

    It's so simple it's probably to complicated. The providers can give us hard pulling diesels that get the job done minus the TT's. The question this provokes is: Why can't the same science be used to produce a steam engine that will give us the same pull.

    Model Power, responded with their Mikado, Bachmann came close with their J Class (but it has TT's) and ConCor made an attempt with their GS Class (also with TT's) . They are getting close.

    The Model Power Mikado fills the bill better then anyother steamer out there. It will pull a ten car train (with micro train freight trucks...minimal drag) up my 2% grades. None of my older Rivarossi, Bachmann, ConCor (with TT's) can match that.

    My new units, ConCor GS4 SP Daylighter (with TT's), will pull a ten car passenger car train up the 2%. It used to do better and you might remember my reporting such as it could pull almost 18 or 19 Kato Passenger cars up the 2%. I was doing some cleaning and the over spray from a can of WD40, hit the rails. Without thinking I ran the locomotive right through it...damage done. It's over and I will be lucky to actually get it cleaned up and running like new. I found a warning from ConCor indicating to avoid WD40 and the only option will be to replace the TT's. Stuff happens and I'm sure I'm not alone on this.

    I ask the question is this what you want? I ask, what would of happened if the locomotive had been engineered to make the same pull without the TT's? My guess is: I would be able to clean the wheels and be back in business.

    I've done my best to identify the problems with TT's. To provide the benefits of non-TT's . The rest is up to each of you. Do you want better pulling Steamers?

    As Ben aptly pointed out, that voice may have spoken clearly.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2007
  9. BNSF FAN

    BNSF FAN TrainBoard Supporter

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    This sure has become a lively thread. :D :D

    Rick, I'm still not sure you have made your point yet. Maybe you need to expand a little more. :cool: :cool:
     
  10. AB&CRRone

    AB&CRRone TrainBoard Supporter

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    [​IMG] Heh,heh. Rick, there must be a reason you have the most posts in a thread entitled "Why I LOVE traction tires." Are you trying to tell us something?

    All kidding aside, if there is a better way tell us about it. So far, adding weight doesn't seem like the answer. Replacing a burned out motor is far more difficult than changing traction tires. Adding a "cheater" reefer, boxcar, or even tender might work. But only if all steam locos ran at the same speed, not a likely prospect without DCC. And don't expect major manufacturers to jump in with cheaters. Most won't even consider power provided by the tender.

    I'm happy with the pulling power of all steam locos with traction tires that I own. I have never been happy with the pulling power any steam loco without. If there is a better way to assure adequate pulling power I can be persuaded. But just saying it doesn't pull my rolling stock



    Ben
     
  11. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    Rick's Rant...

    Mr. Richard Turney and all tuned in,

    Me thinks you are kidding but just in case you are serious here's my capsulated response.

    I appreciate your interest. You may want to do a search and see what I've said in other threads. Type in Barstow Rick or Traction Tires and see what comes up. We've had a very fair and open discussion in a number of past threads. I've earned my reputation here from "Rants" on other threads. Perhaps I could summarize.

    1. TT's require constant maintenance and frequent replacements. To those who aren't mechanically gifted it can turn into a nightmare. There is nothing more discouraging then a poor performing locomotive that requires constant maintenance to keep it rolling. TNA That's Not Acceptable!

    2. As Tony H. / Skipgear pointed out it is the older TT's that break more frequently then the newer ones. With regard to many of the early steamers on my roster there came a time when replacement TT's, are no longer available. And/Or the parts removed to fix the locomotive have been lost and suffer the same fate. The locomotive then gets dead lined or cannibalized for parts. TNA

    3. I have steamers made by Rivarossi, Con Cor, MRC with TT's that lack pulling power. I have a few Bachmann who can barely pull themselves around the layout. To pull a simi realistic train I need to add diesels into the consist. TNA

    4. On most of our engine rosters you can find single unit diesels that will out pull the single unit steamers, minus TT's. There was a time that wasn't true and many of us raised our voices in protest. Old timers in N scale can tell you the single powered truck diesels with TT's didn't pull. The providers and many modelers blindly depended on the TT's to do the trick. Ie., The first run Atlas SD45, a very poor puller with TT's. The providers stepped up to the plate and today we have some fine pulling diesels. Thank-you Mr. Kato.

    4. This is turning into anything but a summary. There have been other observations made by TB participants here in this thread. You will find pro's and con's fairly stated in past theads. I would encourage you to go back and read them. There is enough information here and in other threads for you to make a decision.

    May I suggest: You can join the protest asking model providers to give us improved, hard pulling steamers or you can continue with the status quo. Your choice.

    A Suggested Resolution:

    A steamer properly weighted, balanced and directly over the drivers...so the weight isn't transferred to the lead or trailing trucks, with at least three of the drivers geared up, a can motor with a flywheel and minus the TT's. Ie., The Model Power Mikado compared to the Kato Mikado. The Model Power Mike, will out walk freight cars up my 2% grades...minus the TT's. That has to be a plus and a move in the right direction.

    Hey Ben,
    I just went back and read your last post. I've always liked your witty responses. I couldn't help but chuckle. Am I trying to tell you something? LOL Naw, what would cause you to ask that? Well.... Yes, kind of. I'am but if you aren't getting it I'm probably the wrong salesman to sell the product. So, keep it coming and keep me challenged.

    Closing Argument:
    There's no rhyme or reason why model providers can't put together a hard pulling steamer without increasing the overall cost. In todays world of engineering, science and technology that can provide us with head lights that turn off and on, whistle sounds, steam chuffs, DCC we should be able to buy steamers, stoves, boilers that can make a simi-realistic pull up 2% grades. We can either be content with what is or we can make an effort to make a difference...your choice.

    Have fun Ben and all others tuned in! That's it in a nutshell.

    And to "ALL" a very Merry Christmas! May the steamers that show-up under your Christmas tree be the pullers you so desire. Have fun!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2007
  12. Westfalen

    Westfalen TrainBoard Member

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    Looking beyond pulling power manufacturers of US N scale have got a long way to go before they build this perfect steam locomotive, there always seems to be some aspect of a new model that they can't get right. I'm hoping the Kato GS4 might break new ground.
     
  13. Grey One

    Grey One TrainBoard Supporter

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    Ok, I can see both sides of the argument. Personally I'm in favor of:
    1. No traction tiers -
      1. Appearance - I don't care but respect that others do
      2. One more thing to deal with
    2. Relyable mechanisms - I hear about so many problems with steam that I don't buy many.
    3. Cheater Reefers - made by Kato / Atlas / MT / IM
    Any thoughts?
     
  14. christoph

    christoph TrainBoard Member

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    Rick,

    concerning your mention of sound,light, etc.:
    this is just the problem. All this fancy can be done with some (comparably) cheap electronic stuff that you just glue to a junk chassis (I know that I am exaggerating here :) )
    The other thing like equalized chassis and proper drive is mechanics. And here we have had not that much progress in the field of multiple axle chassis, such as steam engines.
    One of my pet peeves is the frequent binding of steam engine drive trains due to improper quartering. Happens everywhere, and I don't know how I can fix this without risk of destroying the whole mechanism...

    Nevertheless, now to something entirely different:
    have a nice and peaceful Christmas holiday, maybe with some time for the hobby, and enjoy :).

    Best wishes to everybody, Christoph
     
  15. AB&CRRone

    AB&CRRone TrainBoard Supporter

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    Rick, I'm not against this. What I am against is poor pulling steam. With the present method of production, the mere absence of traction tires only accomplishes a poor pulling loco. We saw that with the Kato Mikado as originally equipped, we saw it with the Bachmann 2-6-6-2, the Life-Like 4-8-2 and 2-8-8-2, the Model Power steam as originally equipped. If the trend had continued my roster would have by necessity been an all diesel one. And that is not my choice. I really like to watch a nicely running steam loco that pulls a realistic consist.

    But criticizism of traction tires may send a message to manufacturers different than your intent. I don't think you really want traction tires omitted on steam as presently manufactured. But that is what it sounds like.

    Well, enough of this, I have gifts to wrap. Merry Christmas to you and All and enjoy this courtesy of Switchman http://www.thecompassgroup.biz/merryxmas.swf



    Ben
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2007
  16. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    A Christmas Wish!

    Ben and all tuned in,

    You are correct. The challenge here is to build hard pulling steamers and the goal is to do it without traction tires. Take those tires off of the present day locomotives and they will end up sitting on the dead line... as they can't pull.

    It's Christmas Eve. I need to tell you, I love...ahh... think the world of you all! I'm grateful for these opportunities to freely discuss, issues near and dear to our hearts. It doesn't matter to me what side of the tracks you are on in this issue. You are the "Best" and together we can make a difference. Hopefully, we can leave behind a heritage of superb running steamers.

    I need to acknowledge the following: Westfallen, I do hope Kato get's it right and I think they will. Grey One, the best summarization I've seen yet...you got it. Christoph, Drive trains and quartering is another issue I haven't even started on and needs to be identified as a serious problem. I heartily agree with you. Thank you guys for your input.

    A big Thank-you to each and everyone of you for sharing your thoughts.

    Merry Christmas to all and to all health, happiness, peace and love in your homes. May the Great Father warm your hearts and the love spill over to those around you. At least stay warm.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 25, 2007
  17. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    Traction Tires in Z Scale are unbelievable! Check out this AZL (made by Ajin) GP7 going up a 30% grade:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLN4K-Fz9PQ"]YouTube - AZL Z Scale GP7 Grade Test[/ame]

    All because Ajin uses some fantastic traction tire material!
     
  18. AB&CRRone

    AB&CRRone TrainBoard Supporter

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    Robert, like the diesel in the video, N scale diesels have no pulling power problems and generally have no traction tires. N scale steam without traction tires is another story.

    I'm not sure how fantastic it is, but the traction tire material used by Kato for its Mikado is a patented material that no one else uses, assumedly because of the patent, licensing, etc. But Kato has made their tires easy to apply and readily available which is a plus. And pick up no dirt or grime, at least mine don't. The non-prototypical argument is left but, after all, models are not prototypes. How prototypical can a steam model powered by an electric motor be? [​IMG]


    Cheers,
    Ben
     
  19. Ray Stilwell

    Ray Stilwell TrainBoard Member

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    Rick,

    I couldn't have said it better.

    I for one would rather not buy either traction tired steamers or non-pulling steamers without traction tires. If we all refuse these offerings but keep asking for decent steamers, the manufacturers will find a way to make them just as they did with diesels.

    That's probably the only way we'll ever get decent steam.

    Ray
     
  20. oldrk

    oldrk TrainBoard Supporter

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    How about this. A traction tire made of a material that is strong, long lasting, does it's intended job, electricly conductive and the same color as the other drivers. Also the manufacturer sends two extra sets with the new steamer. Probably wouldnt increase the price more than a dollar. or, making a steamer that pulls great without, but has a TT option also. Just the ramblings of a 40 year N scaler. I do believe N scale steam has really been spinning its wheels from the beginning.(Pun intended)
    Compare the new Model Power 4-6-2 to an old Rapido 4-6-2.
     

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