Moin, moin, any comments to : "Comments and Suggestions:" ben@micro-trains.com Let's go. Tschus and greetingZ, Rolf
I have not seen this letter, but I have not heard either through intention or mandate, that a manufacturer cannot sell a car less trucks and couplers. Does it say a manufacturer CANNOT print "use body mount couplers and archbar trucks of your choice" in their instructions, knowing that the only archbar trucks and body mount couplers are produced by MTL? Then the modeler will just waltz into their LHS and order up a set. Is the above prohibited? If not, it don't affect me at all!
I can understand that 999.999.999 satisfied customers dont worry about the coupler story, anyway Billy with XP and Vista all together is dreaming for such number. But in Europe the story is different. Billy also can complain about this, and it is just protectionism that put him in this troubled water. Marsilius is the main relationship for most MTL customer in Germany and around, if you kill him, there will be a lot of angry 0,0000001 on this side of the ocean. But this could lead even more far. We have for the moment 0% of import taxes on toys. And we have some old guys and girls in Brussel always ready to battle with USA product protectionisms. And lobbiest in Brussel increased already this to 30% for some time, but have no remorse to put special punishment for some companies. Imagine somebody much more angry than me, wrote letter to them......
i want to thank jeff for the business 101 lesson (we can all use a refresher), and joe for his insights. i get the profit part. i just don't see why MTL can't sell their trucks and couplers to other manufacturers for FULL retail price, if they want to. wouldn't that solve the "cut in profit" problem? but instead of that they just forbid catagorically. it's a surprise and brings a gut reaction. i love this hobby and i wouldn't be in it if it weren't for MTL. that's a fact! when i read that one paragraph it was reading like a divorce decree. as one of the "kids" i didn't like it. simple as that. dave f. p.s. i'm done with this debate. i'll wait like the rest to see what happens. over and out.
Devil's Advocate I been reading and rereading all this and can understand the uproar. However from my rather simple minded and perhaps naive perspective I don't see this as doomsday. Yes, other manufactures will not be able include MTL wheels and couplers with their products. To me, as the consumer, that means I have to buy which ever trucks and couplers I desire and put them on. I look at it this way, that just means all those custom, laser and resin kits are just that, Kits! And being kits sans MTL trucks and couplers just maybe they can be offered for even less, which in turn may mean I can afford more. Yes, I have an extra step and purchase to finish the kits, but I have the flexibility to finish it the way I want verses paying extra for something I may have had to change out so they worked on my road. So for sake of this discussion say I prefer Marklin couplers on my rolling stock and I buy a set of the Full Throttle cars, I would no longer have to worry about do with the now excess equipment I removed or having to create/purchase an interface car, I equip them as I see fit. The same holds true if I were to prefer AZL trucks w/ coupler or (in my particular case) prefer rolling stock to have body mounted couplers and separate trucks where ever practical. Plus as eluded to earlier, MTL could start to offer trucks in bulk. Which I hope to be all the more likely after this as there will be greater demand by the consumer, now that there will be kits that will have to be outfitted. It may mean that some cars won't be ready-to-run. Kits that require some assembly are not new in model railroading. Finally if someone new to the hobby decides they want one of these other kits, attaching a set of trucks to a car is relatively easy way to start on getting more involved with the hobby IMHO. So I don't see only the potential for a downfall but rather a shift in the flow of $$. Well that's my $.02 worth. So I'll just go and crawl back into my bomb shelter and until the fallout settles.
Why! Why is August the "Effective Date" for all of this to take place? What is coming out between now and August? or What is coming out in August? Is it something that is good? or Bad? Is it something new or something that will have competition? Competition? Perhaps it has something to do with the newest release of the Marsilius line passenger cars? I read all the comments here and try to think about anything that has been said in chat or typed in any of the many Z scale forums. The only thing I can possibly think of is this! Many, many months ago, Jeffrey White emailed me a link to a European website that showed an American passenger car. The photos were very small and I could not see any clear details. I saved the photos and tried to zoom in with my photo program. No luck. Then, several months later I recall Rob Kluz posting that some company in Europe would be releasing, soon, an American passenger car. I went to the website and it was the same one. It was Rob's announcement that caused a good buZZ in the forums. Their were lots of talk and questions. If I recall correctly, within a week of Rob's announcement Joe made a similar announcement stating that MTL will be coming out with an American passenger car soon too. Now, a few weeks ago another announcement was made by Rob stating Marsilius's passenger cars are ready for release. This announcement started an even greater buZZ!! They may be undecorated but that didn't stop Z scalers from buying out the first shipment. I understand another larger shipment is on its way to Ztrack. RTR fully painted will soon follow. No sooner than Ztrack started distributing the new passenger cars a letter from the head honcho of MTL sends his infamous letter to all manufacturers who have or were including MTL coupler/trucks with their products. Hmmmmmmmmm, what was this all about? Was it the Marsilius passenger car that caused all of this? Is this passenger car the same style that MTL is working on? Is August MTL's release date of their passenger cars? Is this the first time that MTL has had their toes stepped on and retaliated as such with that letter? What about Harald Freudenreich's Gunderson Husky 48' well cars? What about Robert Ray's 2 Bay Pullman Standard covered hopper cars? Or Roberts Bulkhead Flatcars? What about all the whooplah about MTL stealing the want of AZL to release the GP7 and producing the GP9 as fast as possible? For the first time MTL finally had someone beat them to the punch and what do they do? In my opinion, and it is only worth .02 cents, that it was the release of Marsilius's Passenger Cars that started all of this or it was a major factor in the decision. I have nothing against any Z scale manufacturer. I find myself supporting most of them when they release something I want. I may not be able to get as many of what I am wanting, but I do try. That will soon change as the 8 week job I am on draws to a close, I will be able to pay the child support I owe, pay my landlord forward in rent till end of the summer when we move, and be able to buy whatever I want in Z scale for a while. I may be harsh at times on MTL, but I do plan on spending at least $1,000 on items I want that they have made, before the summer is here! Who is in the Know? As Joe said, we don't know all of the facts and most likely will never know the true reason for that MTL letter condeming the use of any MTL Z coupler/trucks on any other manufacturers rollingstock or locos. I have my ideas, some presented in this post and some I'll keep to myself. I apologize if this post confuses or angers anyone. I just thought the above should be mentioned. When you look at the timeline of the events it does make sense. Do the Math!! Hobo Tim
Groupers, I prefer ready to run railroad cars. Take em out of the box- put em on the track- and watch em go! In my time, I have probably built from SCRATCH well over 200 cars and understand this segmant of the hobby. I've built depressed flat cars, Tripple dome tank cars, bulkhead flats, container cars, crane cars, passenger cars, auto transport, - even a Galloping Goose MOW train. All this before manufactures came to the plate. It's an intriguing part of the hobby.... But most modelrailroaders, I believe, would prefer the cars they buy- come equipped and not stripped. For example--what drill will I need to mount body mounted couplers- what drill for the bolsters- For MTL, AZL, MARKLIN,--will these be standard and the knowledge readily accessable to new zer's. If not, what will the smaller manufactures use as standards- do they make thier products compatible for one and not all. If MTL had problems in N scale, why don't they put this edict on N sale... I agree that this problem, possibly came to a head with the release of two sets of passenger cars ( I'd have prefered a more realistic set of conveluted and shorter cars) but it has been festering for some time. FULL THROTTLE, FATHER NATURE, PENZEE, all produced railroad cars that complimented- and did not compete- with MT. and quite possibly increased interest in Z and MT sales overall for engines and other North American rolling stock. FR came out with the container car FIRST--MT follows-- Then the bulkhead flat cars came out in kits- MT follows-- E-8's MT follows, and the list continues I recently got a very well done car- but the couplers and trucks were not mounted- no big deal-- I understand now what is going on- I'll just put it together and let it run--- but the EDICT says in future they can't be assembled or even packaged and sent as one unit. So I'll have to pay additional postage and higher rates for the same car. Possibly using two different sources. Z is divided enough with 3 different types of couplers. Letz make it harder to get MORE hobbiest interested in Z. After all - we want to keep Z small and only for "special people" The day is coming soon when Japanese Z is going to take a look at the North American market - What- another set of standards for couplers and trucks?? We see that the wheel gauges vary from manufactuers and the switches are balky. Lets put up more road blocks to an efficient easy running train. and Less people will even THINK about Z! When I go to a hobby shop and see ALL the things for other scales- Let's say I want a MASS State trooper car-- I can get it--How many trooper cars do we have in Z? This is just an example-- and we are trying to get more hobbiest interested in Z!? Shirely (surely) some type of arrangement could be reached. A few days ago, another Manufacturer announced Z products are coming this year. This can only be good for Z! and in our efforts to expand recognition. This edict is most counterproductive. I really had to think hard when I placed my last MT order. I've got enuff Z ( OH, such Blasfamy)--I won't let Dragonlady read that! I just think that manufactures working together is much more better for Z, than trying to knock each other off. Reminds me of Union Pacific Lawyerz My 2 sense. Fred The head thinkers at MT should get a computer and read all these posts. I've talked to several Zer's that will not post, but this thread has almost 3,000 lookers and 60 comments. I aplaud MT, AZL, Bowzer, the "little Guyz", and other makers and shakers in Z. Lets get the number of Zer's up to support them all
I think what bothers most people is this. We have hobbies to escape from reality. When manufacturers start squabbling, it drags reality into our hobby. No matter the reason, this is not a good thing. I get squabbling and strange behavior at work. I don't need it in my hobby. Frank
Tim, I take issue with the quote below. We have products staged for design and development a good year to 6 months before I ever say a word on the internet. I have better things to do then put Harald or Robert or anyone else out of business, and none of my product design is positioned to do that. When I learn that our selection might conflict, as with the GP7, the Passenger Cars or anything else we chose independent of or without fore-knowledge, I try and make sure we use a different prototype if possible...and we did in all those cases. By the logic spelled out here, we should get out of the Z market all together because someone out there is thinking about doing something in Z. I guess we can't do steam now because North American is doing one...no wait, they must be ripping off AZL who already has Steam out...no wait again, since Marklin did the first Z Steam, North American and AZL is ripping them off... I can't do Reefers because Father Nature has them, I can't do open hoppers cause Penzee does them, can't do Tank Cars cause AZL says they are going to do them...shouldn't be doing passenger cars because Marklin had them first... an silly, silly arguement...Trust me I have bigger fish to fry. And folks are right, 60 entries and 3000 lookers reading a lot of conjectures and supposeds' and flights of fantasy and wondering what all the fuss is about...and as far as I know no one has given managment at MTL a compelling reason to re-consider the decision. Eric doesn't have time to cruise the message boards...he pays me to to that...but he does read emails. This is my last entry on this thread..said my peace. I think I've been up front and square with everyone considering where MTL was 5 years ago and where it is now with regards to communicating with the Z Community. I don't like being accused of being underhanded or trying to hurt people I consider friends because if you accuse MTL, your accusing me too. There's no Voodo Math involved...Business is business and I think it can be done with honor and respect. If I thought MTL was trying to screw people for the fun of it or not, I'd be working for someone else. Joe Joe "What about Harald Freudenreich's Gunderson Husky 48' well cars? What about Robert Ray's 2 Bay Pullman Standard covered hopper cars? Or Roberts Bulkhead Flatcars? What about all the whooplah about MTL stealing the want of AZL to release the GP7 and producing the GP9 as fast as possible? For the first time MTL finally had someone beat them to the punch and what do they do? "
Joe, I don't think anyone would mind too much if MTl did some reefers and 3 bay open hoppers as those aren't really available anymore (or are at least VERY hard to come by). Randy
What happened to BoB Olson One of the original icons of Z BoB Olson has been very quiet lately. Like for the past 5 years. What happened to BoB? Did he sell his hobby line of structures and rolling stock?
No Bob still owns the Pennzee. For some reaon, he just decided to stop producing. He refuses to sell the tooling which is too bad since other manufacturers could develop it and expand the line. It is really a waste.
I understand he's gotten into racing or raising horses with his wife. I figure there's more money in that!
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but its been my observation that people don't get into the model railroading to make money... make a living hopefully, but not *money*. They do it for the love of model railroading. If I hit the lottery I'll spend it developing American rolling stock in TT scale. I may never make back what I'll spend, but I'll love doing it.
Bob Olsen is supposed to be at London Bridges' get together tommorrow. He is supposed to be bringing some new things.
That's good to hear JD. I look forward to seeing him again. I don't believe I've seen Bob since my first get-together with the DC group, and he just happened to be in town to meet with us that day. Sometime in 2003 maybe? See you tomorrow!
That's where I am coming from! If I hit the lottery I always tell myself I will open a company and produce every locomotive ever used by the Northern Pacific Railroad, built to NP specs, and painted in other roads for the rest of you all. I would also produce a line of code 40 track and turnouts, and 3 foot long flextrack sections! I would also produce every major railroad's cabooses, prototypically, and start a caboose of the quarter club, designed for collectors to display in a glass case with a little brass plaque below, with proto info on it! That's the beauty of the lottery, in that with each ticket purchased, you buy a dream till they call out the numbers!
Robert, I think Mark Twain, called the lottery a tax on people who are not good at math. That said, I bought my ticked today. Cheers, Jim CCRR
Pennzee has just released a new Reading 3-bay and says that a new reefer livery is on its way. Dan S.
Joe, Actually, it was his daughters that got enthusiastic about riding and showing horses. So, Bob's time naturally went to his families interests. He's hoping to eventually be able to devote more time to his hobby and the business as his daughters grow up and go to college. Dan S.
