I got irritated with this thread and stopped reading it. Apologisies to all those excellent posters that I have skipped over. The doom and gloom attitude is not surprising but is to me rather silly. If you take a trip to the San Diego Model Railroad museum, Specifically the La Mesa club, it's not all grey hairs in fact, I'd put the average weekend split at about 60/40 older adults vs. tweeners/teens/young adults. A great model railroad attracts them. Like crazy. Seriously, major part of the club. If you go to mile post 38 in Anaheim, one of the best Hobby shops in Southern California, Half the staff are teenagers as are a large portion of the clientel. One of the local clubs around here brings a model railroad to shows that kids can run. It is hugely popular to run the realistic trains around a realistic setting. Further, Next weekend, I'll be at Fullerton Railroad days watching all the kids. Any trip to Fullerton station will have at least a couple parents/children standing their watching the trains go by. As for cost, I seem to recall in the 1980s the average cost for a bachman set hovering in the $80 range. Well, for about $125-$199 (which accounts for very modest inflation) you get a better engine, better track, better cars, better couplers and maybe even DCC. All from bachman. Athearn and Kato sell sets in the same price range. They never used to do that. Heck, Bachman will sell you a DCC equiped engine for $50. It's a pretty decent deal too. And $150-$200 for an average quality engine? That's a seriously distorted viewpoint right there. I would say the average price of an average H.O. or N scale loco is between $80-$130 assuming it's not a monster or a super small run. You can still buy car kits in H.O. for under $10 And heck Bachmann has even made G a more affordable place to work with inexpensive wireless and standard units. And of course, the Toy stores are stuffed with those cheap plastic trainsets powered by batteries. I think as has been pointed out, the biggest drawback is space. And new ways to express yourself in the hobby. Microsoft Train Simulator alone is a big deal. So yeah, it isn't as big a deal as it was 60 years ago, but then, neither were a lot of things. It doesn't mean the hobby is dying. It's just evolving, changing, becoming both more and different from what it was. After all, if I "Play" MSTS, or Railroad Tycoon, or Rails across America, am I not playing with trains still?
You may be irritated by some of what you've read here but the truth nevertheless remains the truth. If the composition of a few cited groups in your area are what you say, then I think the majority here would agree that they are distinctly different in composition than what is seen in nearly every other region across the nation. I can just as easily cite major groups to which I am a member here in the Northeast with median ages of 60 or better and NO youthful representation at all. The aging of the hobby is certainly no mistake, it has been demonstrated by hobby surveys for years and spoken of in many media interviews with folks who are in the hobby as businessmen. If one wishes to seriously evaluate the existing situation, it is necessary to research the facts regarding pricing, median age, etc. Not doing so makes any conclusions drawn simply from some posting prove highly misleading. While, as YoHo posts, some of today's better diesel locomotives indeed do sell in the $80-$130 range, anything in the way of quality steam is well beyond $200, with many examples over $300-$350 lately. If one doubts this, they need only take a look at Train World's ad in the latest MR. Train World sells most products at around 40% off list, pretty much the cheapest store prices anywhere. Yet even its cheapest quality steam road engines are $190 and most exceed $240 (much more with sound). If you average it all out, the mean of diesels and steam is certainly in the $150-$200 range, likely more. Yes, you can buy junk, or seriously out-dated models, for relatively inexpensives prices (less than $50) but then you could also purchase some LL or Bachmann engines for $10 or so decades ago. I won't go much into the question of available space for layouts as a major problem today, citing only that in the eastern part of our county (and probably elsewhere), the homes being built and sold before the market's downturn were decidedly larger in square footage than at any time in living memory. Except for some condo's, no private residences much under 2,500 sq.ft. are available in my area and a great many exceed 3,000 sq.ft. of living space (plus a cellar). Yet mine is certainly no rich community. These "average" homes are fully twice the size of the ones built here in the 1970's, with 1,500 sq.ft. of living space, which is considered today as merely "starter homes". Space certainly isn't at a premium, at least in most areas. Posters are, of course, free to hold and express any opinion they wish to but unless such opinions can be seriously backed up, then they remains just personal opinion, not fact. NYW&B
How many of these McMansions now go unoccupied because no one can afford them? I recently read an article that said 18 million homes are currently empty in the US due to the housing and credit crisis. I think today's ecomomy has more to do with a turndown in the number of participants in the hobby than shifting interests. But certainly both do have some impact but us men seem to gravitate to MRR and other hobbies as time and money allows it. Only within the past year could I finally afford a home with enough space to allow for my "train room", the luck of not being hit by the credit crunch and a salary that can afford the occasional $50 - $100 trip to the local hobby shop.
The truth according to whom? Has there been a study commissioned? Have the questions been vetted to make sure they don't produce leading answers? has an appropriate sample been taken? As far as I can tell, all this thread has is arm waving and I can wave my arms as well as anyone else. What is the makeup of these people that would agree? What are their ages? What have they done to encourage model trains? How does the club they belong to react to young members, or new members in general? Do they belong to a club? how often do they interact in general? What efforts have been made to recruit new members? In particular younger ones. I wouldn't deny that the median age in the hobby is going up, but then that's true of pretty much everything (ugh boomers says the ornery GenXer). That doesn't mean the hobby is dying or that a healthy percentage of younger people isn't involved. Of course, are you suggesting I haven't done any research here? again, where's the vetted data? I would say my research is as good as anyone's here. Tallk about not doing any research, how relevent is the price of a quality steam locomotive to a group of people who only ever sees them at Disneyland? You're not weighting the prices right. Sure, good steam costs, more, but it's less in demand with young buyers. They don't care about it at any price. And those Lifelike and Bachmann engines are how most young people ENTER THIS HOBBY. And the quality of the products we have now, even at the low end is far and away better then what we had 10-15-20 years ago. 4 wheel drive and pickup, ballasted locking track. basic sets with DCC. The quality of entry level has certainly increased. Further, what makes you think that young modellers care about the good stuff? When I was in my teens and early 20s, I skrimped and saved for an Athearn Blue box. High Detail and scale width hoods were for rich old people. And the same is true today. People with limited budgets make a choice. The basic quality of the drive is so much superior now. Yes, the cost is an entry barrier, but it's not going to kill the hobby and it's not all that much worse then any other hobby like this. Uh huh, well that's not true in California as anyone whose kept up on realestate knows. And not all square footage is equal anyway. Open floorplans, sprawling master bedrooms and no basements. There may be more square feet, but that doesn't mean that mom is allowing any of that to be used for something as messy as a model railroad. And even if there is space, those houses are being built in far away suburbs which means mom and dad have longer commutes from their jobs that they're working longer hours for anyway which means there's a lot less time in the day to help a child with power tools and such. Further, We're not just talking about children, but young adults too. They aren't living in mansions by any stretch. And the same applies to you. So unless there's some vetted research on this (there isn't) I don't see how anything more then personal opinions can be claimed. Especially since I'm not questioning sales numbers or that the general age is going up. Only that the hobby isn't dying.
Another thing to note is the potentiial impending boom in rail infrastructure. It may all come to naught, but an increase in public transit funding and rail transport will make railroads more relevent for more people again.
But todays's kids aren't LIKE the kids back then. Today they DEMAND the absolute BEST right NOW. Ten year old cars? Oh no, they want the new ones - five years old. And some of them get them too. Same falls for trains - they can read and they know which ones are the best. And if they can't have them, they get something else - like a video game.
Well, that's the fault of the parents. If they're going to instill that attitude in their child, then they will quite literally pay the consequences and let's face it, the average Video game costs $60 now and an Xbox360 to play it on is a minimum of $300 assuming your willing to cheap out, which this hypothetical spoiled child won't put up with. The version with the Hard Drive, and the HD interface, oh, and Xbox live, the headset so they can call other people foul names (you have no idea) and oh, don't want excess wires, better pay the $80 for the wireless network adapter and you're looking at a minimum outlay of $500-$600 before you've purchased even one game. Oh no, taken in the context of video game prices, I don't think you can complain too loudly about model prices. They're just as expensive.
Incidently, the young people we have on this very sight don't seem to have this kind of spoiled attitude at all. Are you suggesting that they're completely unique?
I see a lot of bluster here but no solid substance. Your claim that there is no available data to substantiate any claims of the hobby's slow decline, is simply untrue. There is a great deal of evidence available through secondary sources that supports that conclusion. If you have actually researched the situation yourself in any way, as I have, I'm sure we'd all be interested to see it. Others here have offered bits and pieces of evidence that show the same trends in aging, lacking of younger members, and a general shrinking of hobbyist numbers, some of it coming from folks in the hobby for decades who thus have a valuable perspective of what has transpired over the years. If you have anything of real substance that indeed clarifies the points that have been in question here, or demonstrates a situation contrary to what most here are willing to accept, by all means please post it. I'm sure we'd all be very interested in seeing such information. NYW&B
One modeler from the baby boomers generation is right here. I've been a model railroader since I was four years old. I am now fast approaching forty-eight. I've never had any layouts published but I've built some real doozys. The layout I'm currently working on is being done as close to my old modeling practices as I can get.
As long as hobby shops still sell model RR supplies, locos, and new and interesting DCC products - I'll be there... buying them and then hacking them onto my layout . As long as model RR clubs exist in my city... I'll join them and participate as long as I can. I have 3 kids and I actively engage them in the hobby as much and as often as they care to share the time and energy with me on the subject. That's the best I can do, myself, in order to ensure the hobby continues to thrive, innovate, and move forward.
No, they're not. Once the parent have bought it, the kid only needs to plug it in and they are playing on the equivalent of a fully sceniced, fully finished club layout You buy an equivalent amount of model railroad stuff and all you have is a pile of pieces. Model railroading is MUCH more expensive once you take into account the space, and the time to build the full layout or cost of getting a complete layout in addition to the games, er, locomotives. It is NOT a "open Box, Plug in Powerpack, put train on track, run train" sort of deal! Some of the young people I have run onto this site over the years are among some of the highest demanders of better models I know. Most of these kids get driven out of this place because in time we can't take their "Kato is the best, don't buy anything else" campaigns. This board has a very unique group of modelers. But when I go places and see wha tthe modelers have, the days of teens running bluebox and old bachmann stuff/tyco while the adults run atlas/brass/etc are over. Now the youngers are running kato, atlas, genesis, and BLI right alongside tha adults who have it too - while the old farts are running the brass, the old bluebox, and other stuff. But this change would naturally happen if enough young people read the modern model reviews. There is no more room for "unprototypical" units.
#1 The baby boomer generation dominates EVERYTHING. They are also the generation that really exploded the model railroading Hobby. Therefore, they will dominate and continue to dominate until they are no longer with us. Every curve you could look at for an entertainment or service is dominated by that population spike. This is outside the hobby. This is every day life. #2 Ask a young model railroader what they think of the NMRA? or Clubs. There was even a post in this thread about the "gray hairs need to leave us so the NMRA can get better" There is a perception among young modelers that the communities for model railroaders are geared towards old fogeys and their transition era railroads. You can't treat this stuff in isolation. If young people aren't getting into the hobby it is as much the fault of the way old people have directed the hobby. #3 relevency. With the exception of a few passenger sets, you'd be hard pressed to find a single starter set out there with modern equipment. Why would a young model railroader want a set with an F unit, a 40' box car, a 3 dome tank and a caboose? How does that appeal? And for all Bachmann, Life Like etc's industry research, they still produce these dumb sets. How about a dash 9 or SD40-2, and 3 double stacks, or covered hoppers for grain, or coal cars? I don't need to provide the additional research, because I'm not disagreeing with Model Railroader's numbers. I believe them, I believe the industry numbers. I'm disagreeing with the conclusion. The conclusion being drawn isn't supported by the facts. The facts such as Baby boomers The facts such as irrelevent support organizations The facts such as poor introduction to the hobby These are culled from participating in these kinds of groups for years and years. Baby Boomers are an emense group. This is a fact. Young modelers often view the NMRA as at best irrelevent. People looking to get into the hobby are presented with something they've never seen in real life. Maybe instead of bemoaning the death of the hobby, somebody ought to 1: accept that the numbers will be less simply because there are less kids to go around and adjust for that. 2: Take the NMRA to task for fostering a bad reputation among young modelers, perhaps force some major changes so it sin't an old folks home. 3: encourage relevent product.
The time commitment is a given, but I was looking at it as more of an out of pocket expense. I bet (and I plan to make a thread on it) that with $500 you could get the parts to put together a good layout that would be operable in a very short amount of time. With a basic loco and cars. Figure $60 a quarter plus maybe $10 a month (game rentals) and you've got a decent setup. Also, the comparison breaks down additionally, because Video games have a larger percentage of people playing them which means more peer support. But, I don't see that as a critical issue if the child already has an interest in trains. Plus, I would rate train related video games as equally relevant to the hobby as a whole. I can't say as I see it the same way. In fact, I see a lot more baby boomers and oldler with the "kato or nothing" type attitude. But again, the cost of entry on that is no different then for video games. If the child wants a $200 engine, well, it's cheaper than an XBox. I think it also depends on age. If we're talking teenagers, well, they're at a point where they can be decerning and make that decision. Nobody starts out there though. They start out with a trainset either way. Remember, they aren't making that initial purchase usually.
No, their boomer parents are making that purchase, which adds to why that engine will be a Kato and not a bachmann. Too many boomer parents rememebr hte crap form the 80s. Even more dream of the days of their tyco sets, those antique sets that aren't made anymore. In all the money [$500] that you suggested to put out for parts for a decent Railroad setup, you have still not taken into account that it takes no more then 5 minutes to COMPLETELY set up the XBOX. All the time after that is the equivalent of Operating the model railroad. Not just a loop of preformed roadbed track, I'm talking Fully sceniced Model railroad style experience. You mentioned the peer group. That is actually a Really big part of the game as well. Would you rather be the oddball kid who plays with trains and thus has nothing to talk about during recess while all the other kids are talking in super smash bros. language, or would you rather get the game too and be a part of the frenzy? For you this might be an easy "Trains!" choice, but for a kid today, its not so easy to say "trains!" I finally joined the NMRA. I have enjoyed parts of it so far, the meets and such. But I do see how most kids would look down on it. Primarily, the cost of entry is high. Most of the modleing is still transisiton era - which is what I model so I am happy. But you had to mention the lack of Modern sets. You look at trainsets and ask yourself why there aren't any with 6 axle diesels and 70 foot cars. Here's why: 18" radius Track!! You CAN get wider radiis, but guess what, it suddenly becomes apparent how much space is necessary to run a real railraod...and with modern equipment, the space restrictions are too much. Add in there how little Selective compression we accept in our model trains nowadays - selective compression that made O-27 work so well for so many years. But the kids that do get involved turn into teens who are have it all in a short run of space - by 25 it can be easy for younguns to end up with closets every bit as stuffed as those of anyone older. Gotta Love those Estate Sales!!!
Actually, this probably isn't true. Boomer parents would remember Lionel and American Flyer. Actually, the 3-rail group at the SDMRM may have the biggest group of kids of all of them. This is not correct. I did acknowledge this. I pushed it aside though, because it's a whole seperate issue. The effort involved has always been an issue and is an issue even for adults. Your also ignoring the very real likelihood that a child interested in trains will likely not be forced to make an either/or decision on this. They will have an XBox and a Model train. I don't buy this either, because in fact trains are seen is oddball by adults too. Even a 60 year old is looked at kind of funny for being "in to trains" a Child that's being brought up in a healthy environment will be encouraged in their unique avocations without discouraging them from socialization. Actually, many of the trainsets I see (passenger in particular) include 22" radius track which will run those cars fine if not look that great in the turns. I agree there is a premium on space, but that's why N-scale is so popular. Still, if space is such a premium, then how about a set with a low nose GP9 or GP38 and a short string of shorty ADM HFCS cars? All that aside, I keep harping on these alternatives. The price of digital cameras is low. It's easy to be a railfan. MSFT Train Simulator is now $10 at Frys. Get them into it on the PC. Railroad Tycoon 3. Maybe a garden trainset which could combine landscaping. I'm not trying to suggest that there are no problems. I AM trying to suggest that 1:The problems are being exaggerated due to the glut of babyboomers skewing things and 2: There are solutions, mitigations, other things to be tried. The worlds Greatest Hobby campaign is a sad attempt at this. Maybe if it were being organized by people that were a little younger it would be more relevent.
There is one other little thing to look at: These boomer parents are no longer boomer parents - they are boomer grandparents. The parents nowadays are the Gen-Xers. Young parents, yes, but I'm 26, and I'm near the end of genX [that little group born after the boomers but before the Nintendo NES]; gen Y came right along and bumped us out of the ballpark. And I am one of the few without any kids yet. In fact, it would seem I am 7 years off from when the kids initially started showing up in my generation, so I am late in this game. Our youth are one of the most educated groups of consumers we have come by so far. They have more resources to finding good reliable information then ever before along with a number of sources that are one sided. Nonetheless, they no longer have to go to the Boomers or the Old Timers for their help. The fact of the matter is, our world has changed since the Old timer years. This new world is simply not as condusive to model railraods as the Oldtimer generation was for the Boomers. take into accoutn that the boomer generation is also the first generation that is finding it difficult to get to retirement without a layoff, and the genX generation KNOWS we can't stay in one job more then five years before we have to move on, and you have a recipe that is NOT condusive to this hobby. MS train simulator and RRtycoon3 have no where near the pull that guitar heor and rock band has with either GenX parents or their kids today. The videogames do not come stamped all over with "this product contains materials that are known to cause cancer in the State of California" nor Warnings that say "this product for ages 14-adult" or "adult Supervision required." It's an uphill battle.
I never said it wasn't an uphill battle (by the way, assuming that 26 in your info is the right age, you aren't all that GenX. I know Time says GenX starts in 1965 and ends in 1982, but that's way broad. You're a tweener between X and Y. Solid Gen X is 1968-1980) but it's an uphill battle for every hobby. Model Railroading isn't any worse off than any other time consuming hobby. And of course those games don't have the pull of Guitar Hero and Rock band, nor do they pull as much as Halo or GTA4. So what? I'm not trying to convince someone with no interest in Trains to become a Model Railroader. I'm trying to target those who are already into trains at a young age. There are products that can keep them intrigued with railroading. It isn't an either or proposition. I saying there is stuff out there to encourage those low hanging fruit. This hobby won't die as long as that encouragement remains. This is why Thomas is important. I think you'll also find that the traditionalism of millenials (new name for Gen Y) is going to be a benefit. But hey, if we want to make this thread a pity parade. "Woe is us and our irrelevent dead hobby" Then be my guest, I'll find someplace that actually wants to breath excitement and relevance into it.
this is hogwash by the way. I read a nifty little article about the amount of time the average person really has today compared to in the 50s. There really is more free time. It's just boken up differently. And yeah, giant basement sized layouts are gonna dwindle as moving because the norm and job tenure slips. So what? We see tons of great work in small spaces. Active clubs, modular... It's all there. And the costs are exaggerated by people who are more collectors then model railroaders. Again, not saying adjustments won't need to be made or that this is somehow a cheap hobby, but it's not all doom and gloom.
