I just got two SD70ACEs. They are beautiful. This is really a great locomotive. But there are a couple of things about this locomotive I don't like---and the DCC install is one of them (greenish headlight lenses is another). I spent three hours trying to get two TCS K1D4-NC decoders installed and working properly and was very very frustrated. I searched several pages on this board and my hasty scan only seemed to show that Scott Stutzman has complained of this (sorry if I misspelled your name). Has anybody else had good/bad experiences? Scott, what decoder were you using? I'm pretty good at DCC installs, but this was the most frustrating experience I've ever had in DCC. Ron
Good experience here with a Digitrax DN163K1D. Took me all fo 5 minutes and 3 were looking for my optivisor. (smile) Seriously, it went really well. I did not put any kapton tape on the frame, but Kato reccomends that so I removed the decoder and put on some tape as indicated and then put the decoder back on. No issues at all. Ran about 6 laps around my laout and put her back in the box.
Thanks Sean. The K1D is the one that was specifically made for the ACE, right? (I don't know as much about Digitrax products).
Ron, I have been using DN163K1B's DN163K1D's and I think I tried a K1C also. I really don't like the new frame design! If you're having read back and programming problems try slipping the ends of a couple toothpicks under the decoder board at the front where the decoder gets it's track power. Also, Those tinted light tubes really p!## me off.... there is no way to get the lights to look good without taking them out and installing fiber optics.:tb-sad:
Not sure what the problem is, I have had no issues installing the TCS or the Digitrax decoder into this locomotive. Perhaps there is an issue with the board, in that there is excess material in front of the contacts that does not allow the board to seat properly. I have all of the ACE units decodered and running without a problem. Using the K1D, there is no need for a shell modification or anything. Same with the K2D4-NC. It may be that the motor contacts are not properly installed if you swapped them from the original light board. There are 2 contacts on top and one on the underside. The underside contact is very easy to break or bend so it is not making good contact. Take a good look at the board and see if there is an alignment problem of some kind.
Not the motor contacts.... It's where the decoder gets power from the frame. I have had some that work fine and some that don't. Not a very good design IMHO.
The issue has, in fact, been documented here on the forums. The issue seems to be the way the factory board goes in, there is too much "slop" where the board contacts are. Sometimes a decoder will work with no problem, and sometimes you will spend an inordinate amount of time getting the board to contact the frame. The contact point is at the front of the board, and it is the same board as the 2006 and newer SD40-2.
I traced the problem entirely to the front contacts. Kato is using an brand new design. My ultimate solution in order to get 100% reliability was to do exactly what Scott did--- and that was to jam something inert under the board so that the board makes better contact with the frame. Ron
I have two ACe's and am using the K1C in both. Neither board physically fit well, and I had to put the shell back on before they would electrically work.
Rather than a Kato problem it looks to me like the docoder board makers have not been consistent in their design and manufacture. It should be a 2 minute exercise to swap out the old board for the new. I would give TCS and Digitrax a kick up the butt and not Kato, Kato has no control over Digitrax or TCS incompetence
I have used the DZ125 in all 4 aces i have so far and they install very easily. They fit on the rear end of the frame and a few soldier joints later i'm off and running. Because of the fit problems of some of the other decoders i use the dz125. I don't like jerry rigging a decoder to make it fit. Dave
This isn't a new problem guys. It's been going on for ages and not just with the Ace's. Its been a problem with anything using K1B's from Digitrax. When they went to ROHS compliant the boards got really thin. Now it's not a big deal, at least for me, I just tinned the contact points, top and bottom and then they would slide in snuggly and haven't had an issue, no shimming needed. But I have found recently with some of the new K1B's they have gotten thicker again. So what might be happening is you guys are getting older K1C's that have been sitting around for a while since they really haven't been a common decoder and are still rather thin. So just tin the contact points and you should be good to go. I have 7 Ace's I need to install decoders in but I don't see any of these issues coming up that I can solve..
Hi Guys, We have been installing the Digitrax DN163K1C in the Kato newer SD40-2's, GG1's and the ACe's. The TCS K1D4-NC decoder is relatively new but the foot print and installation is the same. Both decoders are first rate. The issue with the frame design, from what we have seen, is that the decoder board needs to flex so that it makes contact on the upper contacts at the front of the board. What we have done is to put a small amount of solder on each contact pad. If needed, after insulating the frame with Kapton tape, and the decoder is installed, we put a short piece of plastic between the decoder and frame forcing the decoder to make contact. This seems to work nicely and solves the issue of the decoder thickness. Another issue is the motor contacts. We, in all cases, solder the contacts to the decoder. This makes the motor contact more rigid preventing misalignment.
Mavrick0, I appreciate your post. But that is old technology. Do you have any ACEs? The older locos sort-of pinch the board pads. The pads got thin. So you add some solder. Pads are thicker. Now, you've got a good pinch, But I have concluded that could make it worse with an ACE. The ACE does not use a pinch method at all. This is a totally new method of board installation. The frame is totally open and the basic concept is a child's playground see/saw. There is a fulcrum action in the middle/front end of the board and the board is flexed. Thus the tip of the board at the pads has an upward force applied that makes it touch the frame. So first of all, why add solder? What would solder do? Well, it would increase the "height" of the pad, thus increasing the force applied to the board because of the flexing. All good in theory. HOWEVER, If you put solder on the pads, what you have now done is made the pads an uneven height. You have introduced error into the equation. Since you are unlikely to get the exact amount of solder on each pad nor to get it to flow exacly the same, the pads will not be exactly the same height. So your board will be like a dining room table where one leg doesn't touch the floor properly. The decoder won't make as good a contact because one pad will be "high" and one pad will be "low". If the board flexes and twists enough, then maybe you'll be OK. But this is the problem I've identified with solder. It has nothing to do with pinching for a better fit. That was the old method.
If you actually read my post you would've noticed that I have all 7 of the Ace's that Kato has released and just finished installing 3 K1C's in them and did it exactly the way I had mentioned and didn't have an issue with any of them. So as for your theory of the wobbly table it is out the door. If you have any clue of how to tin and not leave blobs of solder on the contacts then there will never be an issue.
Mavrick, I'm glad you have had such good luck with getting decoders to work in your ACE's, But there IS a problem,And tinning the pads is not the answer for everyone. I'm pretty sure Ron knows how to use a soldering iron.....
It's only a problem if you make it a problem. And everyone seems to be pointing at Kato and saying that it's their problem. Well it's not, they made the engine to their standards, they don't control the DCC world of manufactures. As much as there are decoders out there that will fit the decoders came out long before these engines did so even then they weren't made directly for this model. So rather the constantly complaining about it how about using a little skill which we should all have in this hobby and make it work.
Maverick, I'm not sure why you feel the need to be so insulting. Did you think I was insulting you when I asked if you had done any installs on the SD70ACE? Because I wasn't. That was not an insult-- (if you thought it was), it was just a simple question to see if you had any experience with this particular locomotive-- and the answer is, yes you have, and yes, your installs have all gone well. Thanks for reporting that you have not had any problems (though I wish you could have been nicer about it). First of all I don't know that "everyone" is saying this is "Kato's problem." This thread began to see if other people were having any difficulties with decoder installs with this locomotive-- and some are. Second, your earlier post seems to operate from the assumption that all decoders are Digitrax (or that all people use Digitrax). Well, that's not true. There are other manufacturers in question. I didn't hear anything in your earlier post that acknowledged that Kato has indeed come up with a different design for a board. This board uses a different approach from previous boards. In fact, why are you tinning the bottom pad? What good does that do (unless you are using a really big blob-- and your description leads me to believe that you are not doing that since you are only "tinning" the pads)? What does it touch? If you pull it out and study the slot on your SD70ACE, you'll find that the slot is pretty deep. In fact, here is a test. With the decoder installed, carefully take a little screwdriver and press on the edge of one of the pads. The front edge of the decoder will probably flex downward. In other words, the bottom pad touches nothing. Now, in your last post, you are correct, of course, that the decoder manufacturers have the job to try to implement Kato's new design. Sure. But isn't possible to come up with a new design that's a bit tricky. I don't know. In this case, the decoder manufacturer needs not only the physical measurement of the board to deal with, but I am concluding, the springiness of the board itself is a factor. This might be a problem with the board manufacturers-- though we have people who use both manufacturers having problems. And by the way, I glad you're so good at soldering. You obviously get consitent results. Either that or the Digitrax board flexes a bit to compensate. Best wishes, Ron Bearden
I think it also might be voodoo. I installed a DN163K1D in my DRGW SD70ACe. Nothing. I fiddled with it. Nothing. I fiddled with the contact arms. Nothing. I set it aside for about a week. I fiddled again. Nothing. Another week of dormancy. Today I picked it up, put it o the programming track, and it WAS THERE. I programmed the engine number and now it is running happily. Ha! This really surprised me as it has historically been the Atlas installations that have been most finicky. All's well that ends well. My SP SD70ACe is getting a TCS decoder. I'll see if that one will be easier.
Ron, In my installations, I had to use the DN163K1D Digitrax decoders, until the TCS version came out. I found that using the DN163K1C did not work when the board was placed under tension (flexed). This type of installation is just like the Kato GG-1 install. It is also cantilevered in in tension. What I did find out was the DN163K1C's did in fact work in the SD-40's, but even with tinning, or in my case inserting copper foil into the frame cutouts for the board, the K1C did not work. They did not like the bending I guess. (My source of copper foil comes from all of the Kato rapido couples I replaced with MT couplers. Just fold it a few times and set it into the cutout. I have to do this with the Athearn FP-45 as well) Now, I went ahead and got the DN163K1D and had no problms at all. I would agree with a previous post the the shell needs to be on to run. Even before conversion, none of the units would run on DC with the original lightboard and the shell off. As it pertains to the TCS K2D4-NC, I have not yet been able to get my hands on one of those yet. But I would imagine it will be a case of just a lot of similar tinkering. If the board is not as flexible as the original lightboard, I can see where there could be problems with making a good connection. I do not see this as a problem of the Kato design, since it is essentially the same approach used in the SD-40-2's and the GG-1. But I do understand your frustration. There was plenty of explict language being shouted around here until I found the repeatable solution. I will be picking up my new ACE units next week and will hopefully get the TCS decoders at the same time. Then maybe I can see your situation with a little more clarity. Until then, I hpe you can find the way to get your locomotives running!
