N Scale..Time For Change?

Ok, I've been trying to avoid this thread all day, but nonetheless I was sucked in.

The big question I want to point out is:
Who said finer detail means higher cost?

We've used FMV's new release already, so I'll continue on that example. They're including brass grab irons in the pack for the consumer to install. This give the loco numerous detail points, but will a few inches of brass wire really raise the cost, per loco, anything more than a few pennies?

Lately I've been trying to persuade people to push for a USA prototypical line of Unitrack. Some replied it will cost more than current Unitrack because of the new tooling. Why? The current unitrack had to be tooled at some point. Each would contain nearly an identical amount of plastic and rail. Why would a more detailed (for US) Unitrack section cost more than the current (Japan proto) Unitrack?

My last point is pretty touchy, and I want to say up front I mean everything in the utmost respect, but this a hobby, not a necessity. Sure, I'd like to keep everything as low cost as possible, however I would prefer if the manufacturers focus on detail and performance FIRST, then found cost cutting soultions. If performance and detail is something you can live with out in order to save on cost, there's always Bachmann and Life-Like. There's always going to be cheap alternatives, but you get what you pay for. (Being a full time student, I have'nt made a real hobby purchase in over 2 years, so I know what it's like to have to live without.)

 

Change is in the wind. Good or Bad?

What does one say that hasn't already been said?

How about a look "Back to the future". A historical view point.

I remember a time...long, long ago, when N scale first hit the shops. I bought some to share with my dad. He didn't think much of it...at the time. It reminded us of the toy trains you could find in Cracker Jack boxes. The equipment did improve and eventually it led to building him a N scale layout. You can see these results in my albums by clicking the invite below.

What I remember thinking at the time... was, "I hope the proto types, who've messed up HO, won't come along and mess up N scale". You see, I started serious model railroading with an HO train layout. Hours of fun for me and my friends. Oh I had my complaints, especially when RP 25 was introduced to HO scale and Athearn (of all things) swung with it. Derailments became the name of the game and I hated it. You couldn't make a reverse move without something jumping off the track.

Perhaps confession is good for the soul. I have to confess my HO layout was built to amateur standards, at best. I was in my late teens and each day became a lesson learned the hard way. I was at the start of a learning curve that has lasted until today and I believe will continue the rest of my life. Many flaws that would eventually lead to the HO layout being torn down and never more seen. Yep, as my dad once said, "It was all your fault"...as usual, I responded, while muttering words you don't want to hear.

Since, then I've fallen into the proverbial trap of wanting everything as prototype as we can get it or is possible. A defector, a turn coat... for sure. I think it had to do with all the model railroad magazines and how to books I purchased. I still think I spent more of my income on them, then I did on my model railroad.

Early Bachmann, Rapido, Minitrix delivered some interesting offerings in N scale. But...fell far short of truism. Over sized equipment, details totally wrong, cars mislabeled or lettered. We had nothing but operational problems in the sense of locomotives failing to make the pull. "Revised and rebuilt", but were they really? With lot's of "Lip Service" or false misrepresentations... and bearing the same old problems.

Track, that barely resembled track at all. Atlas finally came out with an acceptable line of track, as did Peco. No it wasn't 100% accurate but dog gone it... my train cars stayed on the track. I could make reverse moves without jack knifing every train car. It was all relatively easy to work with and repair...to a point.

Then it happened. Thankfully and respectfully, I might add. Micro-Trains, Atlas and Kato came into play and changed the picture of N Scale. Look out... and I mean to SHOUT! Suddenly, we had prototype knuckle couplers and locomotives that would make the pull and ran oh so smooth. SWEET!. MRC perfected Momentum and suddenly our trains were behaving like the real ones. No more stuttering, jerky starts and/or appearing to start at run eight.

If you haven't figured it out by now we've gone through or experienced a virtual revolution, reform and explosion of N scale products, as has other gauges. And, it will continue in that direction...into the future.

Terminology has changed. Oh, and that reminds me, we started referring to N gauge as N scale. Switches are now Turnouts...and of course, I don't agree with that one. Anyways, we've seen train locomotives and train cars downsized to scale. Pizza cutter wheels have now gone to low profile. Seems a RP25 discussion has infiltrated the ranks of known N scalers. Foam is here to stay. Making some of us old "Corkers", old school types and our layout construction... old hat. Today my layout looks a bit out of place. And, layouts like mine will be out of date and out of touch.

Changes on my layout have always moved painfully slow. I still have pizza cutter wheel sets, rapido couplers on some of my older Bachmann, Minitrix and Rapido equipment. Slowly this equipment is being replaced with newer Kato, Atlas, InterMountain, Life Like Proto, ConCor and Micro Trains locomotives, freight cars, passenger cars and yes the MTL knuckle couplers. I'm in the process of body mounting my couplers and my choice for couplers is Micro-Trains. I feel they are the best...bar none. Oh, I have the others but I'm experiencing more problems with them...then I care to admit. Grrrr!

I talked to a friend of mine and he feels Model Railroading will see a distinct change. He wouldn't elaborate as to what. He did say he thought the old timers (LIKE ME) will die out AND WE WILL. Gone will be the fellows who had the patience to hand lay their own rail. True modelers will become a thing of the past. Scratch building will be for buildings only and the demand for more accurate models and equipment will drive the price up. Driving most modelers away from or out of the hobby. The one thing we both agreed on, the whiners, complainers and otherwise unhappy campers will always be here to spread their grief.

I once said, "The hobby needed an easy way to lay track, to be able to lay track and have a layout operational in less then an hour or two". Bachmann's EZ Track, Kato's Unitrack and now Atlas's Tru Track has come of it's own. You can take these and put your track down, on a table and have a small layout operational in an hour or two.

I once said, "We will need to find a way to make wiring easier". We now have DCC that virtually eliminates most DPDT specs., and spaghetti wiring down to, the two wires you need for a bus and the wires for your switches. Down right amazing. Eliminating the need for any type of control panel...if done right. DCC is moving ahead at a rate that I predict, you won't be able to get or purchase DC equipment...in the very near future.

There are other advances blowing in the wind. Talk about Bullet Trains, fast Euro and Amtrak trains and the like. The face of model railroading is changing. It is evolving right before our very eyes.

NOW! See what you proto types went and did. baffled:

Look for the silver lining...right? In the wings, waiting to be announced, will be finer locomotives then anything we've seen before. Track properly sized requiring optimizers just to see it. Prototype modelers will hold manufacturers noses to the grind stone and things will change.

Will we be able to afford it? mad:

If we aren't...it will bring on a slow down or down turn and you will see club members drop off, new personal layouts swapped out, switching to other less intensive and expensive hobbies. Our ranks will drop, like flies. And yes, we old farts, die hards... will eventually die off. But, not until I get my new AC 12. I just don't know who is going to produce one that will satisfy me...at a price I can afford. The set income thing.

I've rattled on long enough. This is beginning to seem like work. When your hobby turns into work...it ain't worth doing...no more! eek:

Hope: There is hope. I honestly believe someone will be there to take my place, the hobby will flourish and better things are coming for the next generation of model rails. If the past is a indicator as to our future...you're going to like what's coming next.

Have fun and enjoy your hobby of choice.cool:

Thanks for taking a half hour out of your time to notice and read this. I should of entitled it Rick's Lament. But then, it would belong in another column, thread or posting. Grin.

 

Hmmm... I'm not sure I agree...

I sort of agree with you on this one. Some materials when properly set as add-ons are not very expensive to create... and certainly the cost to add them in the factory should save money on the production cost... which in turn should be passed on the the consumer. The problem I've noted before on this is what Sharkman mentioned in his previous post. Some folks aren't really willing to add these fine details themselves. Atlas did this once before iwth the handrails and stacks of their VO-1000 locomotive. There was some backlash at the 'cheapening' of Atlas' production without a corresponding decrease in cost to the consumer (The VO-1000 set new higher price points for Atlas diesels).

Mark... the problem is not the cost of the materials to make the roadbed or track itself. The cost of tooling (the dies themselves) are very expensive... upwards of $50,000 for most items. Just think how many track segments Kato would have to produce to match the existing Japanese proto Unitrack. It could literally cost them MILLIONS to do all of those segments in US prototype. It took Kato about 15 years (since 1980) to make most of the current selection of track segments in Japanese prototype. As far as I'm concerned... it may be too late for them to catch-up to Atlas Tru-Track and capture future modelers in this type of track. The other problem is... Kato is first and foremost a JAPANESE company and their allegiance will be to their own countrymen' desires. Could you imagine our disgust if Atlas suddenly stopped making Code 55 N scale track in US prototype to satisfy Japanese consumers who wanted Code 55 N scale track in Japanese prototypes?

Well... I'd like to agree with you on this one... after all... If these model railroad companies were making ridiculous profits (like the bankers and oilmen were making until late 2008)... then I'd be leading the charge for reform. Sadly... I really doubt these companies are raking in much of a profit. These are not high margin necessities and one wrong step could cause these firms to post losses. Too many losses and they go out of business. They have to look at their bottom line and get as much out of what they've already bought (existing tooling) in order to finance future projects. We're probablly seeing the effects of a downturn in profits in the amount of re-runs of existing products versus totally new offerings.

 

Sorry but this is the 1970's idea of how much things cost. With the new generation CAD and CNC, the cost for making a tool for a track element is less than $2,500.

My company makes tooling all day long that is much more sophisticated than a piece of track for a lot less than $50K per tool.

It is the 1970 mentality on the manufacturers that ignore what can be done versus how we have always done it. And the corresponding exorbitant costs of tooling.......

I just can not see why the costs are so high......

 

I came into this a bit late. I just got home from work running trains round in circles and spent a half hour reading through this thread, most things have been covered well, but I think the best point was made early in the thread. Whether we get better prototype fidelity or not what I want for my money is something that works as advertised be it plug n play decoders that actually are, or not getting locos with such obvious faults that they shouldn't have been accepted from the manufacturer much less sold on to the consumer.

Regarding wanting switchers that pull more, the typical switcher had to be able to move any train brought into the yard by the road engine, it just didn't have the horsepower to move it at speed, a switch crew doesn't want to waste their shift classifying a 100 car train 6 at a time.

 

What I see here thus far is the expressed want of having manufacturers provide items with greater detail. Have we devolved to the point that we are not modeling railroads but playing with toy railroads. What happened to take the modeling out of model railroading. I don't buy the argument that one doesn't have the time. You do have the time. Its a matter of time allocation. Take an Atlas 90 ton hopper and add the detail to it. Lower the ride height, body mount the couplers use Z gauge couplers, etc. Why do we want Atlas to do all that for us? And for what price?

 

Like I said , I don't buy the "no time" excuse. That's just an euphemism for "no desire".

 

Well put! With only about 10 hours a week of "me" time, I barely have enough time to lay track and install wiring right now. So for those of us with a lot on our plates, better detailing is a nice way for us to have better looking rolling stock to make up for all of the time away from the hobby. Some folks are parents and some folks have executive positions that eat up more than a 40 hour work week. So time and the value of time is different for everyone.

As I said before, I do not have the hand dexterity to do all of this detailing, nor am I anything close to an expert to know what detailing is missing.

I think the difference is those who model cars and those who model railroads. I guess you could say car modelers have the micro detail view, where as the train modelers are more macro view oriented. That said, we train modelers would like our cars to be as nicely detailed as is reasonable. And that does not support the price increases that would scare off many.

So better details are nice, but not at the expense of market rejection.

 

I would love to be able to choose between built up or kit. This includes cars, locos, and structures. I would love to be able to select a car kit then have a menu of items I could select from that would simply be toossed into the box. Some are already doing weathered and non weathered so one should be able to pick what kind of coupler and weather its body mounted or not does not matter as it has to be assembled. Then I could pick metal or plastic wheels and low profile or not. Everything would be individually selected and put into the box like an assembly line but no assembly. The labor the manufacturers pay to have the kits assembled would be dedicated to putting together a box with the pre-ordered parts. Sure they would have to stock more items but with time they would know what to have on hand.
With todays just(barely) in time inventory systems this could be done at similar costs to actually assembling the cars.

I know this may be somewhat of a repeat post but it could be done.

 

I'll trade jobs with you for a week and you can tell me how much time you have, or if it is no desire.

Monday through Friday - 4:30 AM to 8:30 PM including commuting on the Amtrak Capitol Corridor

Saturday - Executive staff meeting, costs and performance , usually 4-5 hours (7:00AM)
Saturday afternoon, run the errands and get the groceries etc.
Sunday evening - Conference call with Asian customers and affiliates (3 hours)

And lets not forget making time for the family.......

So if you want to be a CEO for a week and handle this schedule, you will see it has nothing to do with a lack of desire.

Not all of us have loads of time, and to suggest that we have no desire is insulting and categorically wrong.

 

I'd rather be RUNNING my trains!

But still, I dont mind some assembly required if it's adding detail parts like grab irons or possibly hand rails. I'd like to see kits return for those rainy day projects too.

 

Time in a bottle.

On the subject of time and whether we all have time for a hobby.

There was a time when I worked three jobs to pay for my kids education, a new home and all the other things a family needs. My other half did the same as we both did our best as blue and white collar employ's to support our family. During this time my hobby suffered as did I. There wasn't much time to work on my hobby.

Today, disabled/retired, with a heart condition and all kinds of time on my hands I still find myself waiting for the next energy spurt to pull me through another hobby project.

Time, is relative and can only be captured one second at a time. What time is it for you? One step at a time, one thing at a time. It's time! Let's run some trains.

Have fun!

 

As Rick and others have said; time isn't the problem. It waits for no man or woman. Polish your skills and enjoy life.

We all go through changes in life, youth has impatience, middle age brings the thought of being strong and invulnerable.

I've just passed that stage and run into the "I used to be able to do that"'s. I've got time. It's funny how a stroke and a few TIA's will change your outlook on life.

For those that can do, do it! If you are past that point, take whatever enjoyment out of life that you can. Do not give up, just enjoy the challenges put in front of you.

Passing judgement on others is a waste of time. The thought and time used in judging others is time wasted. It's better to waste your time daydreaming than to pass time judging others.

I'm not trying to inflame anyone. Just passing on a recent lesson learned. Now it's time to run them trains!

Bob

 

Bob said:I've just passed that stage and run into the "I used to be able to do that"'s. I've got time. It's funny how a stroke and a few TIA's will change your outlook on life.

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Indeed..After my major heart attack I take time to stop and smell the roses..A lot of things changed including my outlook on the hobby.Sure I would like to see the improvements mention in my post and the replies but,get right down to the netty gritty I want to enjoy the hobby and the remainder of my life.

In some ways I don't buy that age old excuse "I don't have time" to do this or that but,while they are singing these feeble excuses under "no time" they spend hours watching TV....

Hmmmm.No time..

I wonder why?

 

With all respect, what's wrong with playing with toy railroads? Some people are very gifted at performing the modeling aspects, many are not. The ones that are gifted should be grateful for their gift, and not look down upon those who simply enjoy running toy trains. N scale is small enough that fine dexterity and excellent vision are required to perform a lot of the modeling jobs, and these can be barriers to fine modeling.

I do not have the gifts of modeling, but do enjoy running well detailed trains that also perform well. That is how I enjoy the hobby. As detail and performance improve, so does my enjoyment level.

The original points of this post are well stated. There are a number of areas where our enjoyment of this hobby can be improved. Successful manufacturers will find ways to do this.

It has always been disappointing that with so many track choices, no one seems to have gotten it all right yet. The new Atlas true track and Kato concrete tie track have come very close, and when these lines are fully released, I believe will take us closer.

 

I'd have to fall into the more proto is better camp, but why do we just accept that the price goes up when the realism does? HO guys get great looking products and thier locos and cars cost as much or less than N scale usually with higher detail quality.

The only reason N scale products with higher detail quality cost more is most of us have been conditioned to accept the line from a manufacturer that "if we give you more detail, you'll have to pay $$ more". I don't buy that and if we continue to say "OK whatever you say" and pay it, then manufacturers will continue to raise their prices.

I think there is a ceiling to rail car prices (about 20.00 is the limit for me) and modern loco's top out about 90.00 w/o DCC. If you're charging more than that, not having etched detail parts everywhere and exactly mimicing the prototype then you're just seeing what you can get away with as a manufacturer. I know they're there to make money, but if modellers say this is what we want and this is what we'll pay or we'll not buy your products, manufacturers will (or at least should) listen. There are too many companies that think they can say "special run" or "proto-acurate" and charge a premium for something that is only marginally better that the same stuff we already have.

With my family dollar being streched so thin (why do I pay 7.00 for a railroad magazine again?) my purchasing decisions are definately decided more on bang for the buck than the newest "special offer" from anyone. I agree that body mount options should be standard and there is no reason why manufacturers can't give us an easy add weight option to locos to make them pull better if they're not up to NMRA standards. Standardizing wheelset spacing so we don't have to get different replacement wheels (and why do we have to buy additional metal wheels--make them standard as well) would be a nice way to go as well.

The maufacturers that figure this out will still be around in a few years and the ones that don't will be casting small parts for them or closed. I think manufacturers need to get a grip and realize they're pushing it with value for dollar and if they go too far the hobby will decline and force some of them out of buisiness.

I now pass the soap box to the next member.

 

I'm usually quite with stuff like this or I don't really share my full opinion, but I'm in that kind of mood tonight, so thanks for passing the soap box, and here goes...

Going back to Larry's original post:

Larry, I can't agree more with you, man.

Body mount couplers... Micro Trains could have started this years ago, but they like to take u$ for all they can. And Atlas followed suit once they went with their accumates. AT least give me a mounting pad, especially with hopper cars! It takes a lot of time to cut off the truck mounted couplers and then install them on the body, especially if I have to make a mounting pad for the coupler.:thumbs_down:

And that saying that body mount cars won't go around sharp curves. Have any of you REALLY tried body mounting couplers and then testing them around sharp curves? Or is it that one person says they can't, then that must mean it's true. Gimme a break!

Correct car height. Hmmm, well that stems from those oversized flanges that people think they need to keep the car on the track. If cars came with low profile wheels, then they could be lower to the track. Yet another thing that I have to do that takes time. Thanks 1970's thinking!

Oh, yeah, check this out... using a lower profile flange could allow us to have smaller code track! What? No way! Are you serious?

Scale couplers. That would be great! Even a size equivalent to the MT Z scale coupler.
And what is the nonsense about that size coupler not being strong enough? I add Z scale couplers to all my locomotives, and guess what! I can pull a 50 car, properly weighted train up my 2.2% helix with them. And I don't see that coupler on the last loco straining any. Yet another N scale myth.

I don't see why manufacturers can't start doing things like this. It's like they are still trying to keep the 1970's stuff compatable with the 2000's stuff. You don't see me putting a floppy disk in my DVD drive, do you? Geez, it's time to move on! Take a firm step forward and leave those old ways/tooling in the past.

Addressing the time factor that has been talked about in the previous posts. I'm still in the working class = NOT retired. So train time is limited, yet I try to fit in as much as I can. If I didn't have to do all these little extra things, then I'd have more time for my layout. Some guys won't care that it takes time to add this or do that, but most of them have the time, or have a smaller layout. If I was running a HCD or a 4x8 and had around 100 cars, then I wouldn't care if I had to body mount couplers and lower cars. That wouldn't take much time (Man, this word keeps coming up alot) But since I have a fairly large layout and am pushing 1000 cars, then I would love to have these things done already. Maybe that's why my layout is still in the benchwork stage after 2 years of construction. Instead of spending a weeks worth of time body mounting couplers, I could have been laying more track or adding scenery.

Ok, off the soap box and computer and back to the layout room for more body mounting....

Mike

 

It's not just the "manufactures". When I see some etailers and LHS's selling new locos for 90.00+ and then a few months later selling the same (leftovers) that didnt fly off the shelves...for 40.00 in a 'firesale'...no one can ever convince me they still arent making a profit !! So my thought is this...if stores are selling them for 40.00 and still making a profit...why do they jack them up to 90.00+in the first place? Thats more then 100% of the 'usual' markup !! Is it to gouge the customer? The old adage of "supply and demand"? The modelers "I gotta have it now and damn the price"?

I agree that we as modelers shall set the price. Just as soon as everyone agrees "enough is enough" !! I for one will NOT pay 80.00+ for a locomotive...DCC equiped or not...detailed to the max or not. I have drawn my line...everyone else will draw their own. IMHO...It looks like more and more are drawing a similar line.

:thumbs_down:

Ok my rant is over...I'm gonna go out and run my 40.00 locomotives for a few hours and cool off...enjoy :tb-mad:

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