G'morning all. I've been daydreaming about how the layout will eventually work and ran across some questions on how the MILW electrics were used, specifically the boxcabs (incl. the Quills). To my knowledge the boxcabs were double ended with controls at both ends. Were they ever turned on a turntable? With model live catenary (yes I'm a real dreamer) it's easier if they always run "one way" i.e. with the pickup wheels always on the same rail. Same question for the Quills. I've heard that the Little Joe's looked double ended, but actually only had controls at one end? I know in later years the boxcabs were used as helpers to diesels going over the grades. From the pictures of the steam era I've seen it looks like the electrics hauled the train all by themselves and steam pretty much stayed out of the electrified territory. Is that right? I saw an earlier post on another thread from BoxcabE50 that the catenary stopped at the turntable at Harlowton. Was that true at Avery too? If so, how did the boxcabs get pulled off if they did ride the turntable. I have seen a picture of a Little Joe riding the turntable at Avery, so I assume it was electrified, but I can't quite picture how that'd work. Did the boxcabs do most of the switching duties at Avery? Including the engine facilities? Finally, since Avery was a transition to the unelectrified gap I know the electrics were pulled off the train, did the caboose get switched as well? Thanks! Geoff
I can't speak to all of your questions, but I have seen video conversions of old filmstrips of turntables in electrified territory, and what would happen is that a little yard switcher running off basically a huge extension cord would move the locos onto and off the turntable. I have seen this for Little Joes, at least. I am not sure if they also did this with Boxcabs. Off the turntable, the locos would raise a pantograph and pick up power to continue.
The, "extension cord" switcher at Harlowtown was a C-Liner truck with a cab built on top of it. The power to the traction motors in the C-Liner truck came from an extension cord, though I do not know if the cord was attached to the catenary or to an outlet in the roundhouse. As far as I know, up until the 40's cabooses were assigned to a conductor, and generally stayed with that conductor, so where ever there was a crew change, the caboose was switched out. When "pool service" cabeese came into being they could stay with the train from start to finish. This changed again in the 60's when Washington state instituted retention toilets as a requirement to the caboose operate in the state (something about dropping untreated feces directly into the watersheds that surrounded the rail lines) so some Milwaukee cabooses had retention tanks added and were stenciled "FOR USE IN WASH. ST.". I do not know if these cabeese were held at Avery. -Mark
There is a three video set on Milwaukee electrics put out by Pentrex. I don't know if it still available but I'm sure you can find one at a train show or on E Bay. Steam Donkey is correct about the extension cord for the Little Joes. I don't remember if they showed Boxcabs being turned. There are also several good books out (Morning Star?) on the Milwaukee electrics.
The Pentrex DVD (three-volumes on one disc) is my main source for this, the other being a Charles Smiley DVD that I have.
In configurations of EF-1, EP-1, EF-2, EF-3, and EF-5, there were actually multiple boxcabs joined together in sets of two, three and four units. Arranged so there was a cab at each end. On occasion they'd be used as a single unit, designated ES-1. Remember the E57B at Harlowton. They could be turned on a table if necessary for servicing. However, length required the units be separated, in order to fit. More often, they'd be wyed as a set. Switching at Avery was done by whatever was available. It could be steam, diesel or electric. Trolley extended a short distance west of Avery, to allow electrics ability to switch the west end of that yard area. Once electrification was completed, steam activities quickly declined. Most times afterward was when the trolley might be out of service. Such as a derailment or avalanche. Usually on a work train. Caboose- In olden times, they were assigned to the conductor. When he'd tie up, the caboose was switched off, and set out. That conductor might use it as his home away from home. Later on, cabooses were pooled, and would continue on through. Boxcab E50
You may be thinking of X-3800, which was used at Deer Lodge. Now on display far from it's home, at Harlowton. Boxcab E50
In my MILW vids, it seems *at Avery, at least* that the electric motor would roll onto the TT with pantographs up. Once in position, the pans would be dropped, the motor spun , and then the pans went back up. The Joes used to be couble-ened, as built in 1950. The Wylie Controller (IIRC) was installed in the Joes, and the rear cab windows plated over. This control allowed a Joe, with diesel "boosters" to control the whole consist with only the Joe's throttle. Little Joes had a 32-notch throttle, and diesels, 8 notches. This controller allowed them to operate in sync with each other.
One of the Pentrex vids has a scene with a Little Joe taking a ride on the turntable, as was stated before. However, the hogger did not wait until the Joe stopped, they dropped the pantographs just before the Joe entered the tt bridge. It looks quite elegant when the pantograph drops while the Joe is in motion. To leave the tt, they had to raise the pantograph again, of course. It's an amazing scene! Michael
Thanks all for the replies. I'm hoping to get a copy of the Pentex videos soon. Do they have a lot of shots of Avery? or do they focus primarily on Montana or Washington? In the one picture I've seen of the Avery tt with a little Joe it appears that the catenary is strung directly across the tt pit. If so it makes sense that electrics would have to drop their pantographs before turning. It seems that more often than not the turntable would be used as a regular track for accessing the electrics shed and the motors would just go straight over. Thanks again, Geoff
I don't want to look like a shill for Pentrex, but the Combo DVD that they have on the Milwaukee Road is worthwhile in my opinion. The first volume is called [FONT=arial, helvetica]Volume I: Electric Power on the Milwaukee Road - Alberton, Avery and the St. Paul Pass. This is where a lot of what you are talking about it covered. The Charles Smiley video also has a little bit on this but it's much more general. If I were to buy one DVD with your interest in the electrified lines I would get the Pentrex one. [/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica]Here is a link to their description of each volume. All three are on one disk. Sometimes you can find them broken out into individual chapters on older releases, but I wouldn't bother with that unless you get a really sweet deal on something used.[/FONT] It's nearly three hours, some of the most enjoyable three hours of rail video I have. This is the video that got me started on the Milwaukee Road as a modeling and history interest.
I'm trying to remember- I believe there is one sequence in Washington. The rest is Montana. Including some footage on the old Northern Montana Division. The Boxcabs didn't generally cross the turntable. They'd tie up on the track outside the motor house. They did not need to be turned. Could not be, without a bunch of fussing.... Remember that at the time of this filming, the Little Joes had essentially been replaced as main line power. They were usually being operated singly, as what amounted to helpers. Which is what you see happening in that video, of one being coupled at the front of a newly arrived eastward diesel freight. Otherwise, you might be watching that diesel freight dropping some cars in the yard just east of the depot- Reducing tonnage. Boxcab E50
There are also a few small boo-boos in the narration. I saw one part last night where they said the Little Joes were followed immediately by FP45 number 4. CLEARLY, the loco following the Joes was NOT the FP45. It was the second diesel. Still, I love having that "old" footage and I am grateful that someone transferred it to DVD and made it available to all of us.
The Pentrex release is undoubtably the best done of them all. It has the best narration for accurate history, lack of bias concerning the demise and fewest errors about what is happening in the scenes. Boxcab E50
Yeah..that's the ticket! that's what I get for trying to sound knowledgeable without having my research handy. -Mark
Hmmmm. What punishment shall we set forth? Maybe make him paint a favorite Milw diesel into BN green? Ha ha ha... :tb-tongue: Boxcab E50
Only if it is a U33C Hmmm...dems fighting words. Only if it is a U33C or Wide vision copula caboose, as these were both Burlington at heart..just Milwaukee in the paint. I have video of the U33C they have at the IRM, it's Burlington (green, black and rust) and the video just has it idling on a siding...for about 10 minutes. Friends that have watched it cannot believe the railroad would let an engine just sit there and do that or that I would film it. "Bum..bum...bum..bum..bum...bum..bum..bum"-Doing his best impersonation of an FDL-16 I will be using the photos I took of it to model the U33C Athearn I have..when I get around to modeling the 60's-70's on my layout...which will be when I get done with the steam and 1st generation diesel..so around 2025..give or take. Of course, if I model the 60's I have to do the Milwaukee headquarters, with Crippen and the like laying in a hot tub waiting for the Merger Fairy to show up and save them as they feed the Lion labeled deferred maintenance. Now if you are talking ORIGINAL Burlington..Chinese Red boxcars..black/grey/red switch engines....stainless E- units...that's different.
Well, when I get trackside, I often find myself straining ears to hear that different GE exhaust sound.... Oh, to crank back the clock about 35 years and hear those old Milw talkers again.... Boxcab E50
