I have a question for the PRR fans out there. Anyone who read my last post knows that I model an alternate history of the PRR that has them surviving to modern times as a transcontinental class 1. Given that several markets that I have the PRR running through are now considering high-speed rail service, I've becoming interested in modeling that aspect of the industry. On the the question: If the PRR existed today and had implemented high-speed service a few years ago, what would it look like? What equipment would they be running? What would the paint scheme look like? (OK, that's more than one question...) I've got some ideas, but I'm curious as to what other people think.
I would have liked to see PRR re-emerge from Conrail and suggested that to RR fans here in Pittsburgh. For high speed service All line electrified. Line 1, NorthEast Corridor South, Boston, NYCity, Phila, Baltimore, Wash DC, Richmond, Raleigh, Savannah, Jacksonville, Orlando, and Miami Line 2 Boston, Upstate NY thru Buffalo, Cleveland Toledo, Chicago, St Louis Line 3, Pittsburgh, Akron, Ft Wayne to Chicago Electrified Service-TOFC, COFC, Spine Trains, Stack Trains, UPS, USPO Mail Loco's Modified GG's No Branch lines, No feeder lines, Intesecting with other lines at yards only. Passenger Service Boston to DC only, to Orlando & Miami, Excursion Service
Even had the PRR survived, the GG1s would be gone. Unlike many North American electrics, they weren't retired because the wires came down. The E44s would probably still be around.
Perhaps I should have specified that I meant high speed passenger service. I'm working on modeling such a thing in N Scale, and I was hoping to pick some other brains for ideas. Here's what I have so far. My current front-runner is the ICE-3 (theoretically available from MiniTrix): I also did two for the TGV Duplex (available from Kato): Personally, I think that the tuscan/5-stripe is a little too obvious and retro. I like the 5-stripe on the DGLE, it's just a little too "darth vader". Thoughts?
One of my long-term modeling goals is to do an Acela in a Pennsy theme. However, I would go even more retro than the five stripe you showed. I've always thought the Fleet of Modernism was Pennsy's most beautiful scheme. With the Acela or the ICE, a FOM inspired band running through the windows, with the remainder above and below in silver/stainless could work. I'm not sure how that would translate to the TGV. You could even call it FOM2! :tb-biggrin:
My question is what the paint scheme of a modern PRR would be like. Would they still use the same colors, or would they be one of the railroads that made a radical shift in their scheme in the 60s-70s (CN, CP, GN, SLSF, MKT, IC, etc)? The only recognizable pre-1960 Class 1 scheme in continuous use is UP, KCS only recently having returned to transition-era colors.
Imagine the electric service extended to Pittsburgh & west. Traffic from other points would be consolidated to feed the main line. Also imagine the tunnels improved & regraded to allow for doublestacks & Superliners. The GG1's may be replaced by the Mighty Mouse & a freight motor. You could imagine a high speed freight that would attract container mail & other high priority items. Branch lines may use F40's pulling all coach Amfleet to feed the main line. I could imagine a quality service operating via the Panhandle Pittsburgh-Columbus-Indianapolis etc. Something both paint schemes have is a simplified pattern. You could try a front panel in yellow/gold to try & improve visibility. You could try a lighter color green to go with DGLE. Not sure what a Tuscan/Green ala NH would look like. That suggests a new keystone logo with bold PRR letters. Both need a broad yellow stripe on the frame. A final pont to consider is a consolidation of PRR leased or controlled lines into the PRR system. I'm talking about N&W, Wabash, NKP, AA,etc. The idea here is to try different colors in a PRR style scheme.
I have to agree that FOM is easily my favorite PRR scheme. I'm not sure how well it would translate to high speed serivce, though. The ICE-3's windows dip down at the end, making the rounded-off look of the FOM scheme a little hard to pull off. I could see it on the TGV, with the 5-stripe where I have it now and the darker band around the upper windows. That's one of the problems with trying to modify an old scheme: the whole concept of streamlining and industrial design is totally different today than it was when the historical PRR was designing paint schemes. How do you convey the corporate identity while also conveying modern design?
My postulation here is that the PRR survived to the 1980's, but just barely. As they retuned to profitability, they found themselves strapped with outdated power in the just-slap-a-keystone-on-it moneysaving scheme. To convey the company's newfound prosperity, and to evoke memories of the golden age of the railroad, the PRR designed a new paint scheme based on the 5-stripe used on the BF-16's. This sense of history became more important through the 1990's, as the PRR and the UP were the only class 1's left still operating under their original chartered name. Here's an example of the freight scheme I'm using:
Assuming the PRR just barely survived the 1980's, the PRR's high speed passenger service would look like this: Actually, all their passenger service would look like this: If they just barely survived the last thing they would do is throw money away on a high speed passenger service. There isn't a font large enough on this forum to say how big a money loser high speed rail is. Lets assume the PRR make $2 billion dollars a year. Extending high speed rail to Pittsburgh would take every single penny the PRR made for the next decade (if not more). They won't pay for fuel, they wouldn't pay employees, they wouldn't replace ties or rail, they would just pour every bit of money into the high speed rail. Out of the $8 billion the US is spending on "high speed rail", the only place they will actually have trains running by the end of this decade is between Illinois and Chicago, and that's only because that project started a decade ago and has a lot of the infrastructure already in place (and it won't be true "high speed rail" since the max speed will only be 110 mph). Amtrak looked at both the TGV, ICE and a Swedish design and chose the low bidder the TGV for the Acela. So you could follow the prototype and go with the TGV or say they spread their purchases among a couple builders (just like they do with locomotives).
But I've already done away with that argument by postulating that they did implement high speed passenger service. If I can imagine a world where the PRR still exists and is thriving today, I can easily imagine PRR branded passenger service. My theory here is that the PRR could have used the recent governmental interest in high-speed rail. PRR management approached state governments that were looking into high speed rail in markets that were already being served by the PRR and proposed that the PRR receive subsidies to build and operate the lines themselves. That way, with the PRR also investing money, the states' money would go further. Actually, the final award for the ACELA went to a Bombardier/ALSTOM consortium. The ACELA inherits its traction motors directly from ALSTOM's TGV, but the rest of the train is more closely related to the Bombardier LRC. What I'd really like to use is the Bombardier ZEFIRO 380, but I don't think there are any in service in the real world yet, let alone any models being made. IIRC, the first trainsets are on their way to China now.
Eric, I responded earlier with a rail system for the continuation of the PRR into the 80's and beyond. You envisioned a transcontinental RR system via the UP. Along the same idea I envisioned PRR a transcontinental hookup with the SP to gain entrance to LA & SD ports. I did a study on this whole idea. I settled on a localized portion of the PRR-SP transcontinental macro. This gave me justification for all my freight car traffic. If you need ideas on freight traffic, I suggest commodities (Unit Trains) since you are concentrating on running passenger service. Unit Trains are "express" from yard to yard long distance (actually from mine to utility). On your model RR point to point. For example, the PRR was known for coal, lots of coal. You have metallurgical coal & coke moving west to Chicago, Utility coal moving N, S, E & W destinations. Since your transcontinental RR has a hookup with the UP you could return Powder River Coal East, Stack Service East, TOFC and COFC via two way traffic. You could have grain units or auto racks with 86’ Auto Box cars. You could also incorporate various "Run thru’s" from your short line feeder's and/or lease your "old" power keeping your C-Liners, Sharks, FA's, F's and Geeps alive along with your "re-furbished GG1's. You could also grant track rights to other roads such as NS, CSX or their past subsidiaries and their power could operate on your lines. You have lots of options available to you. This is what I'm doing. I never addressed the paint schemes available. My favorite for express service on the PRR (Amtrak) is Platinum Mist. Case in point, in Don Ball's America's Railroads, The Second Generation, Page 36, the Top Photo reads "GG1 #902 whips mail train 16's array of ex NYC Flexi-Vans, caboose & bags across the Norwalk draw on June 15, 1972". Now that is how I liked to immortalize a "G"! Also on page 78 top GG1 #910 doing 100 mph thru Torresdale PA (been there and seen that action during the 90's AEM's & 00's Acelas). The Pennsy also used P5s for freight and if you took maximum liberty and your PRR emerged from Conrail you could pick up some NYC P2b's (just try to find those models!). Personally, I like simplistic schemes like the Spartan keystone on freight or the simple "Pennsylvania" like on geeps or electrics. Regardless of the name of your railroad or its scheme; I find in these forums you just need to "sell your idea". It has to be perceived as real. The nice thing about being a CEO of your own RR is ultimately we can do what we want.
Regarding (non-high-speed) power for a modern PRR: As I said, E44s would still be around, but none of the older electrics. Probably some version of the E60, or maybe EMD electrics similar to those on the BCR. Anything that was gone by the real-life PC merger will obviously be gone. No Sharks or C-Liners. All Alco, FM and Baldwin power would have vanished long ago. Look at the Class 1s around today. For even GP30s and SD45s to remain, they'll have been repowered. Remember how long ago the PRR died. In 40 years, most of the fleet will have been replaced. I picture the PRR going for AC power early, while NYC with its "Water Level Route" stays all-DC. I'd consider a distinct scheme for AC power, as BN had.
Tri, I appreciate your response. In today's world you are right. I do disagree with the postulation regarding the GG1's. Remember MILW ran 3000 volt DC GE E34B's boxcabs built 1915-1916, thru Idaho still running October 1971, thats 56 years; Reference: America's Railroads 2nd Generation, Page 190, Bottom, Jim Boyd. From website reseach they into May 1974 a total of 60 years; not thru flat NJ but thru the Bitteroot Mtns of Idaho! Also it seemed to me Eric was looking for units to run on his layout as "what could have been running" and a paint scheme. Personally I like the simplicity yet rugged spartan look. The logo could be the Gold PRR in the Red Keystone in the Gold Circle with 5 short gold stripes on each side (It might appear on my signature). I would love to see this logo on the nose side and rear of any unit. As I directed toward Eric; if you owned the 1st generations you could "lease" them to short line feeders. In reality almost all first generation diesels were DOA traded-in going thru PC and subsequently into CR.
What I'm really curious about is modern true high-speed rail, in the 150+ MPH range. Nothing that the PRR had would be appropriate for this task. It would require modern, cutting-edge trainsets like the TGV, ICE, or Shinkansen. That was my original intent. Having said that, I am also interested with the direction that this thread has taken. I haven't given much in-depth thought to modern freight operations, and those would of course be the bread and butter for the railroad. As far as modeling goes, for the moment I've got my AC4400CW's pulling an intermodal consist, and I'm planning to add a GEVO or two in the near future. I have also thought about what a modern freight electric would look like. I doubt that the current offerings for the European market would suffice; not enough tractive effort. My guess would be a GE offering with a GEVO style safety cab (double cabs?) and either a standard long hood or cowl.
Don't forget Montana. In fact, several of the brick substations are still standing and visible along various points on I-90:tb-biggrin: This is probably the most modern North American electric freight locomotive: I love the idea of alternate history LOL. I've thought several times about reviving the SP in HO...
The Milwaukee boxcabs were finished by de-electrification. The GG1s were retired and replaced by E60s and mainly AEM7s. Whoever owned them, I'd expect similar lives.
I could apply one of the axioms of Geology to this discussion as posed by Charles Lyell, "The present is the key to the past". In other words,what is happening today is a good indication of what happened in the past. Considering this, I doubt very much that the PRR would have been able to electrify their whole railroad. Electrification is frighteningly expensive and would have required generation of a huge amount of capital, most likely even greater than the worth of the railroad itself. Several railroads have and still are toying with the idea of electrification(my former employer,the BNSF,for one!)but it would require the involvement of the federal gov't. to subsidize the actual "wiring" of the railroad. I cannot imagine any railroad being able to raise that sort of capital. Even with the degree of profitability of most railroads today, they still have to scrounge for additional capital, above their profits, to satisfy the need to recapitalize their systems. Too many funds and stockholders are demanding the railroads disburse ALL their profit to the stockholders vs.putting the profit back into the business. You should all be aware of the problems the CSX had with that! Perhaps in your vision of a 21st century PRR all this could be possible,but it would have to take into consideration a complete revision of history. But it is nice to fantasize! CT
Agreed. Although with all the stimulus money out there I think someone could have railroaded it to a PRR project. Silly me! PRR is headquartered in Philadelphia not Chicago.
