OP = Original Poster Trivializing the nature of DCC complexity is not a nice thing, and advising a new hobby was harsh IMHO... I'm new to this as well, and I've done a fair amount of research, and have just scored my first loco (no rolling stock yet) along with a Digitrax Zephyr. So far I've run the loco back and forth along 8 ft of flex track. I haven't programmed anything yet either. But as a PC geek, this feels EXACTLY like the early days of computers - registers, dongles, even Cat 3 wires (which would have been advanced in those early days)... Things were complex back then, and the tools like JMRI are just emerging to help fix the situation. I've laid out my layout with XTrackCAD and have imported that layout to JMRI decoder pro. To do that, I had to run a java program from a 3rd party in a command window with long path names to both the utility and the input file, and I had to translate the help file which said to execute "java" when I'm running Windows which means "javaw" should be used instead. Like I said - it is the wild west - 1880's style, and we're just starting to see new things like bicycles and cars start to pop up... Let's not minimize the problems, especially given the fact that it is only on page 7 or 8 of this thread that someone put together the fact that OP has an MRC system and can't use Decoder Pro like a NCE, Digitrax or other users might. These are exactly the gotchas that make this hard - not because it's DCC is hard itself - just immature and unforgiving to the noob. This is an interesting place to be (model trains using DCC on a BBS like this) if for no other reason than the fact that there is a whole universe of computer geeks drawn to this who have great backgrounds in the DCC-like world of programming, and that there are model train geeks who have been around model trains since the DC train model matured. We all have lots to learn from each other. Respect is key. Please don't invite people to find new hobbies! Moose
Awesome post, Coolmoose. Absolutely spot-on. And let us not forget that many of the original uber-computer-geeks were members of the Tech Model Railroad Club at MIT and developed a lot of their computer ideas in the context of model railroading... And so the cycle goes...
Comprehensive descriptions are necessary in order to set the CV's to optimum efficiency. I am finding it difficult to locate the value descriptions on MRC's site. If someone knows where this information is, post the MRC link. It will make things a lot easier. Here is what I mean by comprehensive. CV03 - Acceleration Rate Source Digitrax Acceleration is the rate at which the decoder increases from one speed step to the next in response to a new command to increase speed. CV03, acceleration, lets you simulate train weight or inertia. The range of values for acceleration is 000 to 031 (x00 to x1F hex). Setting CV03 to a value of 00 generates an immediate response to a new command to increase speed. As you increase the CV value programmed into CV03, the rate of speed step change is approximately 1/10 second per increment in acceleration value. For example, a value of 01 programmed to CV03 will cause the decoder to change at 1/10 second per speed step (using the 28 speed step range). This means that it would take about 2.8 seconds for the loco to go from stopped to full speed if you command the loco to go immediately to full speed by cranking up the throttle. Caution: If acceleration and/or deceleration are set at a high value, the loco may not appear to be working correctly. If your loco is not responding when you increase or decrease your throttle setting, reprogram these two CVs to 00 and try again. One can really appreciate the depth of DCC when you can see the level of control we have. To simplify this value: If you crank the throttle the decoder will read this value and respond in 1/10 of a second increments. A 28 step setup will take 2.8 seconds to ramp up to full speed. Tweak the value and you can take create the formula that will emulate the loco taking 5 scale miles to achieve full speed. You have the opposite decel value. Inobu
For your specific example, the decoders (in fact, all 163's) are electrically identical. Also, any Digitrax decoder can be reset by writing 8 into CV08. If you are saying that DP won't write to a K2 when a K1A profile is stored (never tried it, so I can't confirm or deny), then write the CV directly rather than using a stored profile. (or even <GASP!> use your throttle!)
ALL Digitrax decoders CANNOT be reset by using CV8. The early decoders does not support that feature. Ok, all 163's are electrically identical. Then let me say, try using a DN163K2 definition, when a DN144K is installed. Tell me what you will get? I'll tell you, the inability to write anything to that decoder.
Rick, Any luck in identifying the decoder in your particular locomotive? If it is a factory installed decoder, tell us who made the locomotive and what model it is. Yeah, it may seem like a drag that for some of these settings you have to know what the decoder is, but if you think about it, had the DCC standard mandated all the CVs conform to a rigid framework that manufacturers and developers would have been up in arms that their innovation would be stifled and so on and so forth. Think of it this way. It's a bit like programming a VCR in the mid-1980s. We know you're having trouble programming your VCR. I may be an expert in JVC models, and inobu may know Sony and RCA, but the steps we know may not apply at all to your Fisher VCR. There is the distinct possibility that your decoder is fried, too. If nothing is happening at all when you put it on the track, that is a consideration. It happens to remote controls, it happens to computer mice, it happens to all sorts of consumer electronics, and it can happen to decoders. Good luck, Adam
Rick - I'm sure "in time" I'll get there. At the moment most all my funds - pitiful as they may be - are going toward construction of the layout and aquisition of more rolling stock and locos, something that I'm finding you can never have enough of. A fact my wife can't seem to grasp.:tb-tongue: I had an excellent new MRC DC power pack sitting around gathering dust for the last 4-5 years when I started, and my main goal was to get trians running - which is probably the one thing I have not procrastinated on! Loving the hobby and looking forward to - some day! - running DCC. Thanks to all that addressed my procrastinating reasons - much appreciated. Jerry
OP's Response OP=Original Poster and that would be me. To MA, (My Adviser) Please go back to the start of this thread and read it back to this point. This is a progressive thread and much has been said and learned here that would benefit many... asking the same questions. I got a kick out of your response and took at as a good tease. I've been in the hobby since the age 12. More years then I care to admit to. Now, that doesn't make me an expert just a model rail who loves the hobby and is looking for some answers. Answers.... that not only help me but anyone else suffering from the same frustrations. We will get this done and make it work. Adam, The locomotive and decoder in question: Is a Atlas, VO1000, I believe it came decoder equipped. To take the pressure off. I'm not sure, I may have already mentioned this but the previous owner of the switcher, shared with me that the decoder is locked down and I will have to go into a specific CV to unlock it. In the meantime... I can sit and play with it forever and nothing is going to happen. To Inobu, You wrote: Comprehensive descriptions are necessary in order to set the CV's to optimum efficiency. I am finding it difficult to locate the value descriptions on MRC's site. If someone knows where this information is, post the MRC link. It will make things a lot easier. End of quote. Inobu, you said, "I'm still looking for the comprehensive descriptions and haven't found them". Try this: Train Controls, DCC Decoders, DCC Accessories You may have better luck then I. The example you gave CV3, is precisely what I'm looking for. To CoolMoose and TwinDad, Good to have you on board here and your posts have been noted. Ahh, I don't mind the comments that may appear here that are negative toward me. I've responded to the OP=Original Poster thing, at the start of this post. See above. I'm open minded enough to realize that when you live in a glass house there will be those who throw rocks. The glass house syndrome. It's ok... I do appreciate your response and the way you handled things. Just keep bringing your thoughts back here to TB. Update: As many of you have indicated here. By trial and error I'm learning that MRC has difficulty talking to some decoders. On Stubby's HO layout he now has a number of locomotives he purchased that are DCC equipped. Athearn, Bachmann, Life Like (I think). The MRC wireless handles the Athearn units nicely but won't program the Bachmann. It will handle Digitrax, Tsunami, and one odd ball decoder (unknown). Getting back to the Bachmann decoder. I thought it odd that we couldn't program the locomotive address. I tried for the better part of an hour to program it. It would only work on the default setting of 0003. There is much to digest here and I won't be able to address all the issues brought here immediately. You can't possibly know how important this is to me...to read your posts and offers of help. It isn't just me you are helping but three of us model rails here on the mountain. It reaches further then that as I'm getting responses in the form of advise freely offered, answers to specific concerns and questions from other DCC newbies. This thread has sparked a lot of interest. If you missed it the first time. I'm appealing to the manufacturers to give us "Flow Charts" to simplify setting the CV's when operating with our hand controls. Or, if they won't. Let's get our heads together and create our own flow chart. I believe the expertise and know how is right here in our midst. We just need a central location to turn in the information required. Lessons Learned: What I've learned is the MRC, JMRI, Digitrax and other computer soft ware programs simplify programming your decoder. The fun factor. I've also learned that despite the standards allegedly set by NMRA, that each DCC provider has gone beyond...to create a competitive edge. Without a doubt some hand held control pads will not do well talking to other competitors decoders. Spidge, follow up from our visit Saturday. I down loaded the JMRI, software. Awesome and amazing are two words that come to mind. I did find the MRC for Prodigy, Wireless and etc and down loaded them. Steve was over this A.M., to look at it. He found the program to be an excellent teaching tool. After spending sometime with the program, grabbing some lunch we then moved over to Stubby's layout to play with his wireless MRC. It is as you indicated we will need the MRC program. Inobu, also points out. Start quote: But he is locked to MRC. JMRI does not have access to the command controller because MRC has proprietary protocol. This means he has to use their (MRC) components from the platform perspective. It is the original scenario in that the CV data needs to be supplied. (unless he already has it) He can use MRC CV blaster to program the decoder. End quote. We are looking into buying the MRC modem and UBS cords to hook up the programming track. And, YES it appears we are stuck to MRC. Wish us luck, clear minds and a learning aptitude. Don't quit now! Thanks again for participating here.cool: Any and all comments are welcome.
It's all good, Rick. You have a way of driving interesting discussion. It's refreshing. I'm enjoying this because I'm just old enough to remember when working on computers was very much like working with DCC is today. I started out peeking and poking registers on an Atari 400. Not much different from programming CVs... It's a nice mix of nostalgia from my days as a kid and future-hope that train stuff will get as much more user friendly within my lifetime.
The numbers of views speaks for itself in that many are interested in what this thread is providing. Rick, Based on what I see with the Prodigy software it is do able. The hurdle is getting the information for the CV value and their unit of measure but according to their documentation it is trial and error. Programming other parameters: With the Prodigy Advance or Express, there really is no need to know which CV numbers are used to program your loco’s running characteristics, like “Start Voltage, [SV]”, “Acceleration, [Acc]”, “Deceleration, [dEc]”, and “Top Voltage, [TV]”, once you enter the address and press “Enter” the next step comes up. There is no hard, fast, rule of thumb, on what values to input into these running characteristics. Most decoders come with a CV chart showing the minimum and maximum values that these CV’s can accept, plus what the factory default value is. Also most manufacturers do not have hidden CV’s in their decoders, the CV’s that are listed, are usually the only ones built into the decoder. You have to experiment with the different values for each particular locomotive to get it to run like you expect it to. The best way to do this, is to set every to zero, then go up one value at a time. This may be the document that will give you a lot of information. MRC TIPS AND TRICKS. Here is something pertaining to older decoders from this document. Programming Older Decoders With The Advance Or Express Older MRC decoders such as the AD305, AD310, AD315, and decoders found in older Athearn and Walthers Trainline Locomotives can not accept the address programming packets sent all at once by these new highly efficient DCC systems. The same could be true of some older DigiTrax, N.C.E., and Lenz decoders. Also these older decoders might not accept 4 digit addresses or any speed step higher than 14 speed steps, [eratic operation of the lights or running characteristics might be encountered if you program them to either 28 or 128 speed steps]. These decoders might not be able to be “Programmed On The Main”, or “Read Back” on a Program Track. There is a lot more information in this document. Inobu
Rick, If it's an Atlas Factory Fit, your decoder is probably one of the cut down Lenz decoders Atlas were installing at that time, which is very basic to say the least! I've got 3 SD60 that are Factory fits; I'll be replacing them all sometime in the future - when the financial situation allows.
If it is an Atlas VO-1000 with a factory decoder then it is likely an older Lenz design, so then we just need to know the CV for resetting that decoder to factory settings. This page says, ot the Lenz LE063XF decoders that Atlas uses for several locomotives, that you enter 33 into CV 8 and that will reset the decoder to factory values. Now, I have NOT found confirmation that this is the same exact decoder you have, but if it's factory from Atlas it is likely Lenz and likely similar. Good luck, Adam
BINGO! http://www.atlasrr.com/pdf/N_VO1000Manual_Atlas.pdf This one says to set CV 8 to '33'. This will likely set the address back to '03,' but at least, if the decoder is working, you'll be able to get somewhere with it. I am going to guess that CV readback won't work here. Good luck!
Oh yeah, don't worry about all that binary to decimal stuff. I wouldn't necessarily study that manual, just use it as a reference when you want to do something. Good luck! Adam
Adam, Hahaha, yep who reads intructions anyways? I can't prove whether this is an Atlas, factory installed decoder. When you buy something used you takes what you gets. I will give the code 33 a try and then second thought...this runs so well...I might be wiser to leave it alone. I have some pocket change set aside and hopefully next month, no insurance premium, I might be able to purchase some decoders for my Atlas, ATSF, SD24's. I can then experiment with programming. We should be able to have some fun...do you think?cool: Steve, You wrote: Start Quote, If it's an Atlas Factory Fit, your decoder is probably one of the cut down Lenz decoders Atlas were installing at that time, which is very basic to say the least! I've got 3 SD60 that are Factory fits; I'll be replacing them all sometime in the future - when the financial situation allows. Steve, End Quote I will eventually have to decide on what decoder I feel, works best for with my operating system. MRC clearly has limitations. I'm thinking this through and am looking at other alternatives. In the meantime it's learn, learn, learn all you can about CV's.
I have an Atlas VO-1000 with the TCS decoder made for that loco installed. I know this is the one because I put it in myself.
Adam, Thanks for sharing about the VO1000. I need to pull the shell and take a look at the decoder. Hopefully it is printed on it. To all who have tuned in: You might want to check the following out. I'm changing my tune. The more I learn about the CV's the more I'm convinced a flow chart isn't the answer. It would help beginners to grasp the idea. The downside is NO two decoders or locomotives run and operate the same. The CV settings that work on my locomotive and decoder, may or may not work for yours. I could spend hours collecting various examples, compiling all kinds of information. The reality is, what works for one locomotive will more then likely, not work for the next one. Same locomotive, same decoder, same soft ware and same operating DCC system. It appears to me the wisdom of the inventors saw the need and provided a field of options... for our use. I just got off the phone with PSG1790 and Bob affirms that a flow chart is idealistic but not practical. My experience is teaching me the same thing. There are those who like setting their locomotives by hand and there's nothing wrong with that. I see the computer soft ware as a way and means to simplify things. You can still use it to set the CV's yourself. Not a problem. I appreciate Bob's call and redirect. May I suggest I....we need to focus on learning more about CV's. The only way to accomplish this is by reading instructions and playing with them. I would still appeal to the manufacturers of the various DCC packages, that a simplified instruction manual with a type of flow chart....a way and means to get acquainted with CV's be provided. A disclaimer stating, not all locomotives and decoders will operate based upon the same CV or values you program the decoder with. Case closed!
If I may be so humble to jump in here with an off-topic tip. The built in Quote features of vBulletin are a very powerful way of visually differentiate a quote from a response. Throughout this thread Ive had to go back and re-read several posts from several different users where I became confused about which is a quote and which is a response, hence the following link. TUTORIAL - Using Mulit-Quote Feature Back to the topic now please...
Mark, Pay attention there is going to be a quiz later.laugh: Nice tutorial but it's not likely this OP will change his MO. But TY anyway! I kind of like the way I do it. This way I can tell who is doing their homework and reading the previous postings. Grin! What's the world coming to when we talk in alphabet soup.
Update - Flow Chart Update: After we ended up frustrating over CV's and I was asking for a flow chart. Someone was sitting in the NMRA office smiling and having so much fun...just waiting for me to discover the following: INTERNET MODEL TRAINS - N Scale Heavyweight Passenger Cars Ahh, oops. this isn't going to help. I'l be right back. Unless you are looking for good deals on Rivarossi and Model Power heavy weight passenger cars. (Gosh, now how did I do that?) Let's try this and see where it takes us: N.M.R.A. RP 9.2.2 Configuration Variables Yep, that's it! I'm not the happiest guy with NMRA, but I do feel todays NMRA'ers are doing a much better job managing the organization then previous administrations. So, it's no wonder that they kept me guessing. This is as close to a flow chart as any of us are going to get. So, check it out. I'm pretty sure this was already pointed out...my humble apology for taking so long to notice. Down side is: It took a considerable amount of research before I could understand what this NMRA chart aka flow chart...is communicating. I doubt very much that I would of recognized the intent or information shared, at first glance. I don't regret starting this thread nor do I back away from my original observations. This needs to be made easier to understand and that is the total summary, summarizing my first hurrumph. I'd still like to see a flow chart developed that is both easy to understand at a glance and provided as an example of what you can do or at least a place to start. What do you think? Does this help? Or has this confused you? Would a flow chart help you?
