I will agree with you that Life Like Proto should have done the M model GP-60. I am not sure if that is a head up the giggy move though. They probably considered it but didnt want to invest in the tooling. Just unwise decision making on their behalf. fatalxsunrider43
^ I'd think the extra cost in tooling a wide cab for one of the most popular road names which would most certainly have sold out, is kid of like having your head up your hind quarters, but Athearn did the same thing in HO. So who knows. Precisely why I'm not in manufacturing these things. They understand the market and how to MAKE MONEY off of us.
So you want it discounted because it took FVM longer to get to market because Matt wanted to make sure it was worthy of putting his company's name on it? You'd rather have a product that a manufacturer pushed out the door to make it's proposed release date? Some of you make absolutely no sense.[/QUOTE] Only you make sense, only you. fatalxsunrider43
Well, I can assure you that if Matt thinks he has to discount models that arrive late, you can certainly kiss your beloved GP60M's goodbye. Sorry, but the idea of discounting models because they don't hit their ESTIMATED arrival date is pretty absurd. What incentive do manufacturers have to get the product right versus shoving it out the door? I certainly don't want that. You guys act like model railroad manufacturers are getting rich here. If you take about 15 minutes to sit down and do some quick research and basic math you'll see that this business is tenuous, at best. Now, if FVM delivers a mistake riddled product like they have in a few prior cases, well they better get their flame-retardent suits ready. Model Railroading Mecca is watching this one...
OK you guys, I am SO sorry, I was so wrong, please allow me your forgiveness, I was so wrong. I am so honored to be in presence of such wise and superior contributors. I do not deserve to even put forth any ideas at all as all the wisdom overrides the thoughts or ideas of any others. Woe is me !
Let's everyone take a minute and relax here. Run some trains for an hour or so. George and I have had this discussion several times in the past and it's clear there are a hundred ways to draw the lines between supply, demand, detail and cost. (But we still like to have a good debate over it anyways. Mostly because I get to put on my Bulletproof Unitrack NMRA Ninja Armor to scare him off.) I'm not an economics/marketing/manufacturing major, but I know there are thousands of variables that go into the final MSRP of a product. And I assure you that a company as dedicated to MRR as FVM would not be so without a proper marketing team to calculate those numbers. Do I enjoy paying higher prices? No. But remember that marketing team (the guys and gals who do have the economics majors)? They calculated this price with my best interest in mind. That interest being to allow FVM to make a profit which will allow them to continue offering products to support my hobby. If FVM does not make a profit, the prices will not come down. Well, actually, they do, but only because FVM would then offer nothing (IE, they would no longer exist).
You can hope all you want but the entire production has been long sold out at FVM, both HO and N. He is considering a second run of the HO based on initial demand and I would hazzard a guess that the N scale might get a nod also. It has also been said that a second production run would probably cost more because the production numbers would be much smaller and the setup costs could not be spread over a large run. This set is a great deal if you ask me, I look at it as a $150 loco and a $150 6 car set. That is about normal for good steam and a steal for accurate cars. There are plenty of inexpensive car and loco options out there for someone that is cost consious but don't complain about the people who find value in an accurate and extremely detailed model.
For what its worth... I NEVER complained about the people who find value in anything. I find value in everything i have or buy !! I complain about manufacturers who dont give a crap about the "little guy". Dont patronize or belittle me because I complain of high prices. Its my right ! I KNOW there are cheaper models...doesnt take a rocket scientist ! What really irks me are people with lots of $$$ and a 'holier then thou" attitude looking down their collective noses at the people with limited funds !! Carry on...I am done with this thread! Its all yours :tb-mad: .
Some Bachmann and Atlas Trainman line are for the budget conscious modeler. There's enough to go around for everyone.
Why get bent out of shape with a manufacturer? There are plenty of manufacturers that offer value line products, no? Personally, I DON'T have a lot of money to spend in this hobby. But, I also don't buy 2 dozen of each car either. I think a lot of folks complaining about prices tend to be compulsive shoppers. (not saying you are, just in general) I would five times rather have two quality cars versus three "70's tooling" cars. Like the guys that "over-accuse" of DCC evangalism, I think you might be overselling the "holier than thou" thing. Do you really see that very often? I'd say, probably not.... and, to each his own. Awe, come on....that's no fun. And we know better.... :thumbs_up:
Awfull lot of hoopla and some raised hackles here. But I went over to the Spookshow site just to research if an Atlantic type had ever been manufactured. Well there was one exactly 20 years ago based on a PRR design. The price then was $150 for this loco. Now I figure to adjust for inflation, increased production costs, labor, etc. plus all the things we demand, you know like steam escaping the cylinder cocks, the glow of fire in the cab firebox door, smoke out the stack, and sound, this thing is probably a steal at this price. So if the loco does work out to about $150, and performs as well as some of the recent steam offerings gentlemen you just bought a loco at 1990 prices. And folks I hope it does sell out and runs well. Again as in my previous post I'm not in the market for a Milw. Atlantic. But there is the chance that with the above there may be a conventional Atlantic sometime on the horizon. Maybe in PRR with a nice Belpaire cause then I'll have the makings for either a GN or SP&S Atlantic.
This post is looking a lot like another forum that I left. It is time to simmer down and be civilized and be rational. As someone who once owned a large a manufacturing company, most of you do not understand the costs invovled. And with the costs of raw materials and waste disposal and management going up faster than the cost of gasoline. Now add to that the costs of labor and manufacturing , the time value of money, the packaging and the transportation costs and the time cost of money, then manufacturers are not making the profits most of you believe. It was the shortsighted driving down of the cost of goods that sent all the jobs overseas for the laxity in regulations and the ultra cheap labor. Well now that Chinese labor is not so cheap anymore and the prices are going to go up. And we haven't even touched on the adminstrative costs and a few others. The previous quote about looking at this set as $150 for the locomotive, and $150 for the 6 car set is a very good way to analyze this. First of all, those prices are about right and fair. $150 is about the street price for the Kato GS-4, and 6 cars @ $150 is equivalent to the Kato passenger car prices too. When looked in those terms, this looks like a great deal since this a a road and prototype tha Kato would never do, and it is a detailed and complete train with the optional add-on cars. Matt should be commended for his efforts, and if the factory was having issues creating the quality he needs to be successful, then he should delay the production run until he knows it will be right. Do you really want an inferior product on time? Or what I like to tell folks from time to time, "No one is in a hurry for the wrong answer" This is not a set I ordered because I don't run roads I have a difficult time spelling correctly.:tb-biggrin: But the days of low cost model railroad equipment is fading into a memory and it is time to come to grips with that. It is the Walmart mentality that has destroyed manufacturing in America. And the economic retribution is at hand.
If we want the hobby to progress, then those of us with the wherewithal to support small specialty manufacturers like FVM in their endeavors to bring high-quality but limited production models to the market should do so. I model the NKP, but I ordered a complete Hiawatha set because I want to support cutting edge work in my chosen scale. Those of you who don't want to spend $300 for this set by all means should not do so. But if I choose to support a manufacturer in this effort with my disposable income, that is my choice, not yours, and without this kind of innovation, N scale would still have Rapido couplers as standard equipment and roofwalks that look like steel beams instead of . . . roofwalks. And finally, as Tony and others have pointed out, the price of this set is hardly out of line with other quality offerings of this ilk. My SP Daylight set of passenger cars and the GS-4 steam loco from Kato cost almost $400. And no, I don't have a good reason for it to be roaming NKP rails, either. But Kato's GS-4, as imperfect as it is (mine wobbles a bit), represents a major step forward for N scale steam in detail, pulling power and overall operational characteristics. I want these models available. They aren't going to be cheap. I like Steinway pianos, too, and will mourn the day (which I am sure will come) when a $4500 Yamaha electronic piano drives Steinway out of business. Buy it or not as you choose, but (1) don't complain because I'm buying it and (2) don't kid yourself about the cost of innovation and quality. If we want the hobby to progress, we will have to accept that "high end" products will cost more, but that eventually these efforts will raise the overall modeling standard. If I wanted the 1970's back, I'd go buy bell-bottom jeans and shag carpeting. John C.
Again well said john and david I could not have said it better! Buying the train also, it does not fit my UP rail. But I also felt the need to support Matt in producing a great n scale steam engine. Thanks matt For those of you who have nor met Matt he is a super guy.
DCESharkman makes good points in his previous post. Guys, we all want to save money, but is quite possibly a mistake to assume that the economics for niche hobby products is the same as for consumer mass market products like iPods. Let's maintain some perspective when evaluating the cost issue. I have been (off and on) in the hobby for 40 years, and we have never had it so good. If some of us have less money than others (and I have been in both camps), consider that 95% of the satisfaction from this hobby can be still be obtained from a small 4' x 8' layout with a couple of engines. Unless one is a shopoholic, it's the creativity that one puts into the layout that yields real satisfaction. Sorry for the slightly off-topic personal observations. MH
Oh John, pleez no, not the bell bottoms and shag carpeting.... Otherwise , you're right on! Regards, Otto
OK, after some modeling and running trains: the Hiawatha set sold out, guys. That tells Matt and anyone else that it was priced right and timed right. Good for him and good for everyone who wanted it and thought it was a fair deal. If anyone feels any part of the run was unwise or unfair, well, there's only good news: nobody needs to buy it. And the fact that FVM's gamble paid off for them means the rest of us might get something down the line that's interesting. Of course, I'm probably the only one who wished he would have picked something other than the GP60M's (Hey, Jerry, I wonder if that thread you did pushed Matt over the edge?)
I paid about $250 for a Superliner set several years ago-- and it's run by diesels. I also don't see what the big deal is. I would pay $300 for a highly accurate reasonable length CSX executive train with an A and B unit and individually accurate cars. Man o man, I can only dream that they would be made at this point.
I made my reservation the MINUTE they accepted them, I thought that showed good SENSE to support Matt. I have waited along time without a peep from my lips. We havent received any updates as to the delivery, still dedicated to my reservation and not a peep. Still no news and I didnt even know what I am going to be charged for the set. I am NOT complaining, just letting you know how it has progressed. It almost seems open ended, still holding my reservation. I'd say that is being very patient and hoping that such patience will be rewarded with a perfect set. If not, then I am not sure how to feel, certainly wont mention it here so as not to get hit for even saying anything, let alone hoping that the price will be just as fair as my patience. Still supporting Matt, although an update would REALLY be nice to those who support. fatalxsunrider43
