I've been rereading some Great Model Railroad publications and it has reminded me of something that annoys me - but I'm not sure it should. A lot of these layouts use handlaid track, but they only spike the rail down every 3 or 4 ties. Now I've read articles about handlaying that say this is the way to go, but wonder if the prototype actually does this. I can perhaps understand only having occasional nails on a light siding but surely any main track would have four nails on each tie at least, and I know that even more might be used at times. Rivet counting? Well, maybe, but I find this very noticeable and on a layout where there is a phenominal attention to scenery and correctly detailed locos, etc, it just seems lazy not to lay the track properly as well. After all it is a model railroad Someone please tell me I'm wrong, so it will stop bugging me
Hi Mike, As a hand-laid rail guy, I understand what you are saying. I model HO and it would be impractical to try and set two spikes side-by side because it is diffucult enough to set one spike without splitting the tie. Perhaps someone who works with larger scales would have more success with the more prototypical multi-spike per tie. But I can't ever recall seeing a photo of any in all my years. Pushing spikes into a wooden tie is labor intensive, but good therapy (if you know what I mean). But spikes can sometimes come loose and become fouled in moving parts of the locomotive(s) as a result of being drawn by the magnetic field of the motor(s). I, for the past several years have given up hand driven spikes in favor of hot glue. While admittedly it does not look as realistic as having spikes, it sure is alot easier to lay the rail and maintain it without having some spikes flying back into my face while trying to set them, or have them fly off somewhere that may show up later in a locomotive's drive train. Good question though!
It seems that before you call handlayers who don't spike every tie "lazy"..maybe you should try it yourself, better yet build a layout with handlaid track. You might get an idea of what is involved and the "art" of handlaid track. You might be one who wants to use plastic tie track which is spiked on every tie and then the quest for "realism" can continue. My 2 cents. Woodie-the Outlaw troublemaker
I've hand laid track for years in HO. I do spike every tie around guard rails and frogs on turnouts but I only spike every fourth or fifth tie on all other track. After weathering, you can't tell unless you are on top of the track with a magnifying glass. BTW I use code 83 on the main with code 70 on the sidings and code 70 on the branch with code 55 on the sidings. If you are after the most realism with spike and tie plate detail, I suggest ME flex. That's my 2 cents...spend it wisely.
Whew! The OP just says that his impression is that it "seems lazy"...he didn't suggest that everyone who resorts to what he admits is a very common practice is lazy. Big difference. He also asked for a correction or some insight...not to be abused with an ad-hominem argument. By way of my own thoughts on this, I would like to see tie plates with the four spike heads molded on, and made so that they could be slipped onto rails, positioned over ties, and then CA'd or something similar. You get the handlaying, not the spiking, but the details and gauging are entirely reliant on you, the modeler.
You have to ask yourself "how close to prototype do I really want to be?" Spiking doesn't look exactly like the prototype, but neither does any plastic track. When you have a whole layout to build, spending time spiking each and every tie is super time consuming, not to mention overkill. This goes across the whole "model railroad" board. Not everything can be exactly like prototype. Mike
Mike- The forces at work on a model railroad, versus those of a real railroad are very different. It can be done with models. It could be done on the real thing, and I have seen places where spikes are missing for whatever reason. But it's certainly not adviseable as a practice. On a model RR, the ballast can hold ties in place, if they aren't already glued down. Spiking only every three or four ties, it's not really that much of a gap, so works just fine. Whatever works for the owner of that model railroad, as long as they are happy! Boxcab E50
I'm well aware of the amount of work involved and I use plastic tied track. The tracks in these magbooks are supposedly top notch layouts (and there are several) with superb weathering and detail. But even in fairly general pics taken from a couple of feet away (HO scale) I can clearly see the absence of spikes. It's one of the things I now notice, along with goofy bridge setups Obviously not, but when someone spends 1000s of hours constructing a model that can almost be mistaken for 'real', but doesn't put in some (to me) fairly obvious details I'm just plain puzzled. I know it's a lot of work, but in the total of building any layout to these standards I'd think it's not actually a huge amount extra. But my primary question hasn't been answered, which is does this practice have prototype origins? Ie. on 12":1ft track are ties routinely left unspiked? If not then regardless of the effort required a truly excellent model will have all the ties spiked - either by hand or by plastic moulding machine
Sorry - not ignoring you; you posted while I was working up the one above. I'm well aware of the different dynamics with scale - that's why we don't have 40ft spiders outside Hollywood and can run a heavy H0 freight over a 1/8" piece of ply for a bridge. I'm merely looking to establish whether 25%...30% spiking is a legitimate amount by prototype practice, or a modelling shortcut. I think it's probably the latter but would be happy to be corrected.
I've never herd of a prototype skipping ties. On the model aspect, remember that many who chose to hand-lay usually aim for accomplishment over prototypical accuracy. Another way to look at it; I purchased the new IM AC-12, one of the most gorgeous N scale models to date. But had I scratch built something not even half as detailed, you better bet I'd still be hundreds of times more proud of the model I built myself.
I guess we have a homework assignment - go out and walk some track everyone :tb-biggrin: I know that I have thought - while idly looking over some prototype mainline track - that it was odd that the occasional spike was missing here and there. Can't say I ever saw (or remember seeing) any ties skipped.
It's that nuisance, Candy again. I've been reading all this and wondering why so many guys hand lay track when my ME track looks so good and it was easy. Well I think Mark just answered my question
If I may, with the model, it is ok to skip spiking every tie. Strength wise, it works. Then again if you consider the track a model..... then sure spike 4 per tie, with tie plates, anchors, and maybe even the metal piece that goes on the outside of the tie, on some modern ties, if that is your period. Then again, what about date spikes, on larger scales? Also depending on period, or rr, the rails would be only 39 scale feet long. Also what about bad ties? As to prototype, you would always use 4 spikes per tie. Now, depending on class of track, determines how many good ties, you must have per 39' rail. Class of track is different than railroad class. IE class 1 railroads, is your biggest/best railroads. Class 1 track on the other hand, is pretty poor, and slow track. Excepted track is worse. http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/tss_compliance_manual_chapter_5_final_040107.pdf "109(c) Each 39-foot segment of: Class 1 track shall have five crossties; Classes 2 and 3 track shall have eight crossties; and Classes 4 and 5 track shall have 12 crossties, which are not: (1) Broken through; (2) Split or otherwise impaired to the extent the crossties will allow the ballast to work through, or will not hold spikes or rail fasteners; (3) So deteriorated that the tie plate or base of rail can move laterally more than ½ inch relative to the crossties; or (4) Cut by the tie plate through more than 40 percent of a ties’ thickness."
Cost! That's why I hand lay. The cost of track on my layout is 1/10th the cost of using ME prefab track.
Hi All, I work on the track crew for a small tourist railroad. We maintain our track to FRA Class one standards. That means 10mph for freight trains and 15 for passenger. Not that high of standards really. We always make sure that every tie has at least 2 spikes per rail. One on each side of each rail. On some of our sharper curves we have 4 spikes on the outside rail to help keep it from spreading out of gauge. I do not know off the top of my head what the FRA standards are but this is our standards for spikes on a small slow railroad. By the way we don't haul any freight at all so our heaviest piece of rolling stock is our GP9. I would believe that in order to make an accurate model of track you would need one spike on each tie, However I sympathize with those that hand lay their track and doing every 4th or 5th tie saves lots of time and money and has no effect on the physics of their scale railroad but in 1:1 scale Every tie with spikes is a must. The reason for missing spikes every so often is lack of maintenance. Over time some spikes especially in older ties work their way out of the tie and eventually fall out. On out railroad we call these "high spikes" and pull them out, insert a wood plug as a filler, and reinsert the spike. The big railroads don't take the time to fix these on a regular basis. Hope this helps!
Modeling shortcut. Only as it's not necessary as per prototype. You can spike every tie on a model, but it does not improve your trackwork. Except perhaps appearance. Boxcab E50
Prototype railroads do things out of operational necessity. A Class 1 railroad will have yearly tonnage over a piece of rail that is a meaningless number. It is too large to really comprehend. If the rails were not spiked so well, they would spread under load and cause derailment, property damage and potential loss of life. The spikes are all that hold the rail upright and in position. If model railroads had the scale equivalent tonnage, they would need as many spikes. Prototype absolute modeling would mean each 39' foot rail is only about 3 inches long in N scale. If I spike every fourth or fifth tie, I still have rail sections no longer than 1 inch without spikes and most of us don't have heavy enough models to deform a 1 inch rail held down at both ends. On further thought - just how big is a scale sized track spike? Without looking at a prototype spike, I think I remember the size. The n-scale spike head would be less than 1/100 of an inch wide - kind of hard to see even if you have 4 per tie. Also the spike would only be about 1/32 inch long - would be pretty hard to handle and wouldn't hold much anyway. Prototype modeling is usually done with the idea of making appearance and operation as lifelike as is reasonably possible.
I do spike every 4th tie. Trust me putting in that many spikes is not being lazy. Since you don't hand spike your track, I would invite you to try a couple hundred feet of track and a dozen switches or so, then get back to us on how lazy every 4th tie is. Now as to the detail, yes, most handlaid track doesn't have the detail of the commercial track. But possibly the detail isn't the objective, the construction, the effort is. It becomes a question of how much time and effort do you want to put into it before the effort becomes more tedium than enjoyment. Now if you want all the detail, you can go to Proto87 track (www.proto87.com) and you can get tie plates, scale size spikes, all the track details, etc. Build a couple hundred feet of track and a dozen or so switches with that level of detail and we can have the "lazy" and "need more details" discussion.
