This is a general discussion and need not reference any one manufacturer. In addition I don't have any hard data to support my position. I personally don't care about the accuracy of the detail any given model has. I just don't. If it looks good, runs well and I can afford it, then I'll buy it. So, why would I even start a post like this? Because it matters. It matters not only that people push for greater accuracy and higher quality mechanisms but where and how they do it. If we all remain silent and let the manufacturers produce anything they want anyway they want * I feel * (yes, that is an opinion with nothing to support it), that the quality over all will slip. So, ya, a vendor does an non-prototypical paint scheme and thinks / feels / believes it won't matter. They omit a couple of details that can't be seen at 18"s. Take a look at how far N Scale has come. I expect it is because people did not accept poor to mediocre. I can think of manufacture whose locos ran great but many of the paint schemes never existed. They had a fire sale on those units and today produce outstanding equipment though of a different nature. So, the key is not to remain silent, it is to find an effective venue for expressing ones self. Send notes to manufactures Start your own threads about the issues Do so in a logical systematic manner Stick to facts Try to avoid going off topic to express yourself which will just turn possible supporters against you I feel all N-Scalers should push for higher quality of both prototype accuracy and drive mechanisms. Just my opinion and I could be wrong.
You haven't explained why it matters. You just stated that it does. In any event stuff made to day is pretty much all better than stuff made 30 or 20 years ago, excepting the odd bit of immortal tooling here and there that is still out there. The most convincing way to tell manufacturers they need to make high quality products, is to buy high quality products, and leave the junk you don't want on the shelf.
When sending "notes" to the manufactures it's probably a good idea to include in the correspondence that you're also willing to pay 30-40% more money. That might help your cause.
Its not so much the people that model (yet without the modelers N scale would be nothing) But N scale got better quality because of the competitive nature of the manufacturers they realized that in order to sell more they had to step up the overall quality of the products they are manufacturing. I mean lets face it if everything is evolving and N scale stays behind, sooner or later a manufacturer will up the ante and that someone will sell more. So the quality is there but its still evolving and getting better its a great time to model in N scale.
:thumbs_up: This is a great point, but having been in both retail and manufacturing, the "general" public loves to look at the detail of the newer products. they just don't want to pay for them. Is our hobby, while improving, pricing most of us out of it. Model Railroaders are a diverse and complex lot. I have been reading most of the entries in the general section of trainboard and found that many contributer's want to get the most bang for the buck. I know, I'm one of them. For example, I have the pleasure of knowing Gregg Scott, Owner of GHQ Models. He has got more talent in his little finger than I have whole body, but seeing what he does, makes me want to become a better modeler. His products are second to none, but they are pricy. I'd like to have a whole town of his products, but I have couple upfront and other company's products in the background. The MSRP of the new rolling stock and engines has been slowly rising and with the situation in China restricting the output of product, We Model Railroaders are on the verge of a problem.
That is why it matters. Yes, "stuff" is better. But "stuff" keeps showing up that is not prototypical or a reasonable mechanism.
Yes, things have gotten better, and you could say it is because of competition. Um, Still, what drove it? I think it has been those who have demanded it. The vocal ones that have insisted. The thrust of my post is not that the vocal ones remain quiet. I feel they should not go off topic to make their points.
That is a rather narrow point of view to take. First it assumes everybody cares or should care about prototypical accuracy. Which doesn't account for people who model fictional railways - and some of the most interesting model railroads have had no prototype to follow, either for location or rolling stock. Also what one may regard as "reasonable" somebody else may not... People prove demand for high quality products, by buying high quality products. I don't think anybody wrote to Bachmann and said "hey, stop making your 0-4-0 engines, they don't run very well" - and that resulted in them discontinuing them.
Yes, Mos, it is narrow. That does not make it any less valid. Yes, there are those who produce outstanding fantasy layouts. I personally do not care about prototypical accuracy as can be seen in ever so many of my postings and in my creation of "Mysterium" as the main product of the "Grey and Grandure" in a world where the GN took over the UP.
I pretty much agree with what you've outlined Steve. There will be many dissenters to your comments because the cost of improving the models is passed along to the end user... causing some modelers to balk at the ever increasing prices. There needs to be different 'grades' of product to satisfy the modelers of different economic strata and/or modeling inclination. Some products for beginners... at a relatively low cost... would help to bring in new prospects into the hobby without giving them 'sticker shock'. There really should be a renewed emphasis on kits as well. I used to buy kits in HO when I was a kid cause they were cheap and fun to build. Atlas has to a certain degree done some stratification based on detail and pricing by moving the older molds to the Trainman brand... while adding the Masterline brand for new molds with added details. Now Atlas has even begun to make brand new Trainman brand models too. Other manufacturers may need to do similar stratification to their product lines. I guess that the best reason to improve the quality, detail and fidelity to the prototype is to get people to choose N scale over HO scale. One of the biggest hurdles N scale had to overcome was the lack of availability AND the 'close-enough' attitude manufacturers took. This certainly kept HO scale modelers from downsizing to N scale... and probably kept the more serious newcomer 'modeler' types from even considering N scale. If you're a fan of N scale, the manufacturers need to raise interest in the scale by removing some of the objections that model railroaders have to switching from a larger scale to N scale... and to simultaneously remove those objections from potential newcomers to model railroading. As more individuals switch or enter into N scale... manufacturers will produce more items to fill in the voids in motive power, rolling stock and accessories (buildings, vehicles etc). Hopefully manufacturers will do so in a manner that will benefit everyone.
If you want to put the fear of God into a company, get another company to compete with them. A poorly executed model is to be seen as a business opportunity for a new vendor to fill the void. How does a vendor choose a model to make? Easy peasy. Look to EBay, and see what people are buying at outrageous prices. Ever seen a D&RGW Jordan spreader on EBay? Nope? That's because so far no one has died who owns one. SP snow fighting equipment from Donner Pass? Have no idea what manufacturers are thinking, but I'm gonna postulate, "No one models SP or Rio Grande, so why make something so specific?" :tb-biggrin:
This is why I don't understand how nobody can be making a PRR K4! The old minitrix ones sell for near their original prices (and sometimes over) all the time, even taking inflation into account they've held their value well. When you consider they only look "ok" and only the last ones with the lower gearing ran really well - this is pretty amazing really. I also know that manufacturers have gotten plenty of requests for them. So what is the hold up? Kind of mind boggling really.
OHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...Kewl Thread !!! :tb-nerd: *Sitting here....eating my popcorn... :tb-tongue: AND *Still Smilin* :tb-smile: .
Steve, Good point, but take a look at the product improvement over the years, particularly those most recent, and you will see that all products introduced today are incredibly better than those in years past, and granted there are design issues, engineering issues, detail and historical issues but definitely less in intensity or magnitude of years past. This is no doubt because the suggestions you make are already in place and quite active. This improvement I feel is due to trial and error, industrial "borrowing", common use of manufacturing source (China and Korea), forums which US distributors read and participate, public input, feedback and outcry, assisted engineering by aftermarket companies (where do you think Kato got its traction tire for the Mike?) friendly/unfriendly competition in the market and so on. All of these factors contribute in varied proportions to a highly intelligent and well informed market. I also know from observation, participation and talking to railroad people that colors and coloration varies. Frankly, I am quite surprised to see that UP colors are so similar, even though painted by several different manufacturers and sources. Last, I have had my share of notes over the years with manufacturers regarding my disappointment with their lackluster quality or poor performance of some of their products such as Model Power with their original Pacific (which improved), and Kato with their GS4. To me the problem is that the N scale population develops iconic attitude toward some makers and excuses and defends products, and even takes great steps to accommodate these problems while espousing their quality. What a joke. We also need to look to ourselves. The manufacturers and distributors pay close attention to this board and others, monitoring our responses, particularly those guys who take apart a new loco and give it a microscopial evaluation, or aftermarket correction items. I know because it seems the few times I criticize, the process begins. First I get flamed all over the place by forumers, then they slowly start to see the points made, then support starts to gather, and the manufacturer/distributor gets involved. Their initial response is so predictable it is jocular, but they pay attention. Just why do you think Bullfrog Snot was developed by an aftermarket source? It is happening, products are better, and everyone who wants to get involved gets involved thanks to the computer and internet. But the power of critique is too often abused by over-tempered people with agendas who want to get respect by ripping others. Too much on every forum. Hence the new terms, Kato bashers, Atlas bashers, etc. But I am old and just don't give a hoot about how others feel about me. I highly value my own sense of integrity and moderation based on years of experience - getting ripped and rewarded, seeing things that work and don't, etc etc. I am an "Equal Opportunity" ripper and supporter, not bound by predisposed opinions regarding new products. I have just learned the hard way that thanks to us, a product can improve vastly from bad to excellent. I ripped the original Model Power Pacific, which ultimately got improved, but recently I never realized how well, until I ran a friend's loco 4 months ago, and now I own 8 of them all different and looking to own more. Last but not least, provide input and watch the attitude in your words. I have found that facts and evidence speak volumes and diatribes without proof are empty screams into the Grand Canyon. Work with the manufacturers when they contact you and they will if you provide proof and hard evidence. Whew, I said my piece, not as well as I wanted to but I hope the points get through. I have bucked heads with many of our manufacturers over the years and it can get personal, but I ignore it when aimed at me. The companies are manned and managed by human beings, too. Never forget that no matter where they live. One final point, a subtle rip about ConCor and its "fantasy" roadnames and versions. Those are done for a reason, which are way too complex and numerous to list, and I am a supporter of "fantasy" trains simply because the crux of our hobby is imagination, lots of "what if's", guesses, conjectures, and most of all accommodations. So, just when is Atlas going to issue a Bessemer and Shenango Valley RR SD60M? Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman
You are absolutely right about this. I already pointed this out here. The very people complaining about the quality issues will be the first ones in line to complain bitterly about the price increases that would be required to satisfy the improvements. Isn't life grand?
Train Kid - I don't think you are right about who will complain about price increases. In my experience most folks have issues with prices regardless of what they are buying.
Maybe we're already there? I think the product improvements, while great to see, have consequences: STICKER SHOCK. It's created a paradox whereby manufacturers are making better detailed products, but in doing so have priced them out of reach of what I think is the larger segment of the market than the ones driving the push for better quality. It's then exasperated when pricing increases further because manufacturing runs are smaller due to less being sold (due to price). I simply can't afford the newer generations of rolling stock that are now listed MSRP for $20 or more, nor the locos which commonly list for over $100. Yeah, the commonly sell for less (which in itself is an indication), but they are still too pricey for me. Pushing for higher quality is nice, but what good is it if it causes the product to be priced beyond what most of the market is willing to pay?
Gee guys, can we give up the vanity that "we" can push for "something." We are participating in a new era for N-scale, one that is market driven. We will all prosper for that. Technology, market growth, and communications are the keys. We are no longer a niche marketplace. (And aren't the niche participants better off?) Are new releases too expensive? Man up to that and enjoy next years after market through on-line sellers, just give up the vanity of being a "firster." Don't like the "prototypicality" of an offering? Buy the appropriate detailing kits and put your sweat to your needs. Something not offered that you just must have? Build it yourself, hawk it to the right people, and profit from the experience. Let's enjoy where we are going, not regret where we are. baffled:
I don't think quality is a primary issue these days, but rather selection. There's a bunch of products out, and coming out, in HO that I'd love to have in N-scale.
I work in a hobbyshop and I think we are at the plateau right now. Price points can not go any higher without a substancial effect. The $20 price point is the limit most "normal" customers will pay for a car. If it is a car that is not specific to their home road, they are happy with more like $15. The "die hard" modeler can understand and stomach the higher prices but the average man on the street thinks a $20 car is nutz. I had a customer the other day that was stuck in the 70's and was looking for $3 train cars. He was grumbling about price and asked me, what makes this car worth $20 vs. what I used to buy. When I explained to him, besides inflation and shorter production runs, the parts count and details have quadrupled since he was last looking. An old LifeLike box car has grand total of 14 parts: Car Body, Floor, Brake Wheel (if you are lucky), truck frame (2), wheel (4), rapidio coupler (2), spring (2), weight. A similar modern car adds: seperate roof walks, brake rigging details, opening doors, wire grabs in some cases, working coupler consisting of and additional 4-6 parts. etc. etc. Each part is a new mold to tool, more assembly time, more paint time, which adds to the cost. He looked over the cars, agreed that they looked much better, and continued to grumble. His comment, "They look very nice to someone who knows the difference and cares, I don't. I want a train car to run around my layout, nothing more." I still see as many people in this camp as the ones that know what car they want and are willing to pay the price for it. The majority of cutsomers out there really don't care for the extreme details and are not willing to pay the price for them. Fortunately there are enough "nut cases" (my customers opinion, not mine) that are willing to pay and understand the difference in quality and details to keep the companies going now. From a business prospect, we sell just as many detailed "expensive" cars as cheap cars. If we can keep this trend up, then there is more money to be made in the higher priced cars than the "cheap" cars. The people that are price concious are also not buying nearly as many cars, they only buy a few, but there are more of them. The people that understand the newer car model, tend to buy more creating a ballance between the two right now. The hard part is keeping the price concious people happy. We need a niche for those people also. The trainman line helps alot, and compared to $20 a piece cars, $12 cars look real good to the people that consider price point only. Hopefully they can start slow and get the bug, then they too will be one of the "nut cases" that understands what goes into the higher priced cars.
