Why N-Scalers Need to Push for Higher Quality

I have to say, I expect a bit more from N scale (AS-616), but compared to its origins back in 1969, N scale is in the space age, with lots of variety and superb runners like my prized bachmann 2-8-0's. New plastic steam is lightyears ahead of early brass! Plus, it is WAY cheaper and more space-efficient than HO. Having said that, I think at least ONE model of an engine with each "unique" feature should be made--a large enough crowd of people would buy them--, like one with a belpaire firebox, different wheel arrangement--like the 4-6-0 that was overlooked until now--camelback, a steam dummy, a climax and heisler, a boxcab, and a baldwin road switcher (AS-616).

Well, N scale has its setbacks (No AS-616) and many models have been overlooked (like an AS-616), but building unique models to fill gaps only helps to improve our modeling skills. Some models run great (like maybe a future AS-616) and others don't (hopefully not an AS-616). And AS-616 if AS-616 we AS-616 look AS-616 at AS-616 ourselves AS-616 in AS-616 the AS-616 mirror, none of us would ever regret modeling N scale. AS-616.

--My philosophy for N scale is to hope for what we would like, be happy with what we have, and KITBASH THE CRAP OUT OF ANYTHING GOOD WE FIND.:tb-biggrin: AS-616?

 

I think he's trying to tell us something...

 

I think you're right Mark. Just not quite sure what it is. Its like right there....but just escapes me...hmmmmm:tb-nerd:

.

 

You're gonna hafta be more direct. I can't handle subtlety, nuance, hints or subliminal messages. Put it out in the open so I can just read it; don't leave me guessing.

If I didn't know better, I'd lump you in with those guys who fixate about AS-616's.

 

And keep those choices available somehow. I'd like an RSD15 to round out my ATSF diesel fleet but someone starting out today will have missed out on a lot of the more common prototypes us 'old timers' collected but are no longer available, you want a GP7, you've got be there with your credit card in hand when Atlas does a run. Want a GP20, we did have a good one but will Walthers make any more for those starting now who missed out?

Like Big Boys, Challengers, Cab Forwards, GG1's and GS4's.:tb-wink:

 

When they came out in 1999 they were fantastic. I'm sure a DCC ready rerun would sell, they could use the mechanism from the last GP18 run. I picked up a second hand one with decoder installed for $60 6 months ago but they are getting very scarce.

 

The only one of those that is really unconventional is the cab forward.
The Big Boys though remarkable for their size are fairly conventional in appearance, and other railroads used x-8-8-x locos too.
Several different RRs used Challengers: Union Pacific, Northern Pacific, Delaware & Hudson, Denver and Rio Grande and more... - a fairly conventional loco used by many companies, hardly unique.
The GG1 may be odd looking, but they survived long enough to be used by a few different companies, and their long life makes them appropriate for several different eras of modeling (1930s - 1980s).

So yeah, bring on the camelbacks and belpaire fireboxes. Why should the HO guys get all the fun stuff?

 

Walther's announced a run for January.

http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?quick=++PROTO+N(TM)+Diesel+EMD+GP20+



Jason

 

The first I've heard of these, better get the credit card ready. All sounds good except the limited run part, someone starting to model Santa Fe in N scale this time next year will be again be saying "I wish I could get a GP20". I wonder why it will be a limited run, did they find some unused GP20 shells and mate them with GP18 mechanisms as I hinted at? January would be enough time to paint a batch of undec shells found lying in a corner of the factory and ship them over.

I know this thread is about quality but you need availability as well.

 

Hmmm, I'm very tempted to go off my purchasing moretorium. I'm certain it was a Santa Fe GP20 in my HO Tyco, (or was it Atlas), train set back around 1962ish. Man, nostalgia is a powerful force.

Westfalen - People are welcome to go off / semi off topic in my threads.
There was one hint in the description:
"* Road numbers Listed will Not be Re-run"
Which would be fine with me.
"* Engines in this run will be Discontinued When Sold Out"
Um, does this mean the "GP20" or just those with with those road numbers? or ?

 

It would seem that this is Walthers' way of implemementing the current 'build to order' structure that most companies have. No more $20 locomotive blowout sales.


Jason

 

So, is there a consensus?
Yes, we need to push the quality curve but no, it need not be excessive? Can we agree that it should be through selective channels instead of the middle of other threads?

Really, yes, competition will drive development but without user feedback how far would they go? There has been huge evolution from rubber band drives and cheap rheostats to exquisitely designed gear drives and DCC. We've come from mediocre sloppy details to sharp lettering and etched brass. How much of this was due to compettition and how much to user reaction? We will never know but it seems to me both are imperative to continue the expansion of N Scale as a whole and quality along with it.

 

I have a sudden urge to buy an AS-616... but I can't understand why... I might have to switch to HO scale right now so I can get one.

Subliminal advertising can have some unwanted effects too.
:we-wink: Where's my: FM H10-44 and Baldwin VO 660 !?!?!?!?!
Ummm... you can get them in HO scale.

 

A desire for improvement is not just competitive.

In some fields the need to improve to gain a competitive advantage is inheirantly there. Our hobby is not in the same position as other fields (computers for instance). If there is no 'push' for improvement beyond a certain level... the few manufacturers would be satisfied to continue making the same level of quality they are getting results with. Why spend additional R/D money if there is no significant call from your clients to improve the product? In N scale, the idea is to get people to CHOSE IT over other scales. One of the biggest drawbacks in the 1960's and 1970's was the poor running quality. That was improved in the 1980's. Then the call was for more prototypical models with more details and a wider range of products. That was done in the 1990's to present.

DCC and Sound in N scale... is now the big push for the future of our scale. Making these leaps in technology at such a small scale will render our DC driven loco's to look like those rubber-band driven items of the 1960's. Further miniaturization of motors, better (heavier) alloys for chassis will give us more pulling power and more options in the next decade... BUT... only if we are willing to ask and AFFORD to pay for those improvements. If not... why would any manufacturer do any more than what the customers ask for.? Obviously... many of us want every improvement to be FREE or no more than $1.00 higher than what we paid for the last year, but, thats not going to work for the manufacturers.

There will be some model railroaders left behind with 1980's technology simply because they are not willing to go with upgraded products. We still have a lot of folks that don't own computers and are happy with their analog TV set (with converter). It may just be the financial circumstances of those folks... or just a mere resistance to learn a new 'trick'.

 

my thinking is this
model XXX cost $10,000 to make the mold,plug,die or what ever
else is needed to make this car-loco
for this run tooling
10,000 cars @ $21.95= $219,500- $10,000=$209,500

10,000 loco @ $89.99=$899,900 -$10,000 = $889,900

10,000 U.P. gevos sounds like a number kato could sell!
and they make almost a mill.

now i know somebody is going to state labor,insurance,shipping/packaging
but this number is only for road # xxxx we all know U.P. has more
the 3# for the gevo so that is $26,697.000.000

now paint them in all the road number and road names and kato
has made a fortune off this one mold

 

To think I almost missed out on this lively discussion... without sounding off. Was this just resurrected or is this a current on going, progressive discussion? No matter.

I read the thoughts shared by my partner in crime, the other party of the "Grumpy Old Men" team. I thought his shout out on this subject was right-on, a shot across the bough. George is right. Humm...I must be suffering from old fart syndrome.

Then I looked at what Tony Hines, had to say and found myself thinking...this sounded like me a few years back. Pretty much my experience and perspective from back in the early 90's. Claim to fame...A former LHS employee. Only the prices have changed, back then $10.00 to $15.00 was to high a price to pay for a train car. $70.00 to $100.00 was a unheard of price, for a locomotive.

Reading Grandpa Joe's and Grey One's take on this subject. Seeing it from yet another perspective.

From a historical view point: MINE! Grin!

For you newbies just starting out I can see...perhaps...your frustration and then... I don't. Allow me to explain. If only you could have experienced what many of us senior types saw and went through to get to...TODAY! You have no idea and what stands out in my mind is, why did it take so long? The last fifty years has moved painfully slow and the products were even slower to come by. It took Mr. Kato to set the standard and give other manufacturers something to shot for. This change in quality, didn't charge in and change things overnight. It happened gradually and was first noticed... in the early 90's.

Today, the place my presswood central. Finds, Steve and I running a (first run) early production Kato SD45. I wanted to show him how things have changed over the years. From the first run of these locomotives...to today's runs of locomotives. On the track an Athearn FP45 (first run), an InterMountain SD45 (first run) all recent acquisitions. Bring in the early Kato SD45 (the first run). Follow me on this otherwise you will most likely miss the point. On analog DC all three of the locomotives run well together. What's the point you ask? When the Kato SD45, first came out you had to purchase other Kato SD45's to run with it. Nothing else was geared close enough and wouldn't run with it. To see these three locomotives running together is a statement all by itself. Without a doubt, a indicator that things have changed and the quality has been improved dramatically.

Micro-Trains set the standard away from horn hook or those awful looking Rapido couplers to knuckle couplers. Also setting the level of quality for freight cars and an assortment of locomotives. Contributing heavily to Z scale...today.
Kato set the standard for smooth running and first rate attention to details.
InterMountain followed suit and improved on detailing locomotives.
Kato came back with a track line, a beginner could put together and have a fairly authentic looking track.
Athearn, finally stepped to the plate to produce quality N scale products. Never mind what they've done over the years for HO.

From a historical perspective:
ConCor, although years ago was the first to deliver full length passenger cars.
Rivarossi, got into the mix spinning off IHC and we saw the early Challengers and Big Boys.

There are others who've added and made a big difference over time. I wouldn't want them to be offended, by leaving them off this list. My mental computer won't allow me into that part of the memory bank. We got old, waiting for....you can answer that.

It's taken a combined effort on the behalf of us... as customers, members of various clubs and organizations, assorted model railroad wig wags, hobby shop owners, that have consistently voiced our requests and opinions... via letters to the editors, head honcho's of manufacturers, wig wags (M&R Magazines) and through clubs and organizations like NMRA. It's been painfully slow going but for those of you what are just getting started, I can assure you...It's never been so good.

You won't suffer the pain of waiting...as did, we Senior Types.

We've biggrin:never had it so good.

 

Your numbers are a bit off, ok more like not even in the same galaxy as real life. If you think Kato makes $89 on a loco, you are dreaming. I know what we as a shop pay for the loco, which is coming from a distributor which also gets a cut. By the time you figure markup, materials cost, labor, and shipping (this does not include tooling and research), I bet Kato is lucky to make $10-15 per loco raw profit, msybe $25 per if the planets are alligned just right. (and keep in mind, this is for existing tooling)

 

I think quality is evolving. I will cite one "for instance" however it doesn't have a happy ending.

Way back in 1982, I was just starting to accumulate my N scale trains, and made heavy use of several hobby shops, auctions, swap meets and mail order houses. I was so clueless as to what was really good and what wasn't. I sort of assumed that N was like my former scale HO, where price indicated the quality, so I felt as long as the MSRP was high, so was the quality.

I remember seeing a bunch of Atlas/Rivarossi steamers (LT Pacifics, LT Mikes, and 0-8-0's) listed in a catalogue for 20 bucks plus freight each. I had Rivarossi in HO and liked it, so I ordered a few. When I got them, there were disclaimers regarding no factory warranty and the units should be used for display only on stickers all over the box. But when I pulled them out and ran them, they ran OK. I had zero inclination that some of them had defective metal frames.

But most of my locos hung in there, and I only lost a couple, but ended up easily and inexpensively replacing them and was sort of satisfied, but bewildered as to why the frames bent and disintegrated.

Then as forum began to accumulate opinions, topics, reviews, and such, the magnitude of this problem became evident, and soon Rivarossi had a major quality control problem on their hands for locos made years ago, but under ConCor were being reissued as the Heavy Pacific, Heavy Mike, at very high prices, but no one I knew sprung for them.

Some people must have taken a big bite because over the years, I bought a few of the latter for about $50, still having some faith because not all of my Rivarossi's bit the dirt, so to speak.

Someone at Atlas and ConCor over those years must have done some royal squawking because I saw only a few passing comments back then about the metal frames, nothing compared to what is being discussed now about that dreaded "poison zinc" or zamac. But when I lubed my latest Heavy Mike and Pacific, I noted several differences to the same model, all unknown by me at the time, and I read everything. The last ConCor/Rivarossi steamers were pretty darn nice -- first, the metal seemed to have a smoother texture and was harder and heavier, the engine/worm connection was better, and the motor was a Machima can motor instead of those old clunky Rivarossi can motors. Heck, even the steam switcher and Berk came with Kato motors, although I do not own one.

Somewhere along those years, Rivarossi must have heard the pain over here and reacted, but improving their product. IMHO, the response was action and no words, which I felt they should have done to survive. All ConCor did is raise the MSRP.

Now it seems that those beloved steamers originally made by Rivarossi are now made by others, such as Model Power, Athearn, LifeLike/Walthers, and Kato. I think the manufacturers, thanks to this and other forums, are made well aware of every pitfall or weakness or glitch of any loco or rolling stock today, and yes they are improving. Heck, even Mehano's last production RSD15 long nose had all wheel drive, all wheel pickup, and a five pole motor.

Again, the overall improvement is there every new and reissued loco, it is just a evolving process, and probably not as quick or resolute as some of us would prefer.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman