Yep, shoulda woulda coulda :tb-biggrin:... WP's came with DB's from EMD... A railroad that intended to use the engines in pretty much flat land running would order without the DB's. Railroads like WP or the Clinchfield got them because of the grades. BTW, Rick, here's a picture in this discussion of a Zebra stripped GP7 with DB's... Look towards the bottom. BTW, anyone got a shot with the shell off?
New member chiming in, just received my Pennsy GP7 and as others have said for the price I'm impressed. Runs great/ looks great!:thumbs_up: Rick
I haven't actually seen one of these Bachmann geeps in person, but I think I can judge from the photos that it is actually pretty worth while, and nothing to sneer at. It also sounds more than a little affordable compared to other manufacturers out there. However, if you think the couplers look big on a GP7, I just got one of the 44-toners, which has the same couplers and they look absolutely overwhelming on the smaller loco. The GP7 in the pictures seems to have couplers that are actually not too out of proportion by comparison.
According to The Santa Fe Diesel Vol 1 70 of Santa Fe's 250 GP7's came with dynamic brakes, all those with d/b lost them when they went through the rebuild program starting in 1972. My theory as to why most Santa Fe GP7's lacked d/b is that they were ordered primarily as replacements for steam on branch lines and locals and the railroad figured the expense of dynamic brakes weren't needed on all of them. Clinchfield's reasoning was probably the same.
The most profound statement of your whole post. You are bashing a loco based on soley on the fact that it comes with the name Bachmann printed on it. If you don't have any practical experience with this particular loco then you have no ability to comment on its qualities or lack there of. Not to mention the historic data you stated has been shown to be incorrect. Rick, I know you probably think I am picking on you. I'm sorry if you feel that way but unless you have personal experience with the loco in question or facts to back up your claims, its probably best to stay out of the discussion. It just derails the topic into another bash Bachmann topic.
I would hazard a guess that the basic shell was painted before the parts were added. Now that said I remember a long while back, maybe it was Arnold who had a GP9 that had a removable dynamic brake hump. I don't know if you have looked under the shell yet but if there are no holes for mounting pegs then it should be a snap on. You may be able to carefully take a chisel blade exacto and gently pry it off. Of course if you already have decals for CRR should not be too much of an issue to just change a number. That is unless it is like my experience once. Went to correct a lettering issue and found that the factory applied lettering and the decal lettering didn't match.
It was shopped. Thought you might like to know! This GP7, pictured in the afore mentioned post has been shopped and the D/B added. How do I know? Originally the Santa Fe emblem was centered below the AT&SF on the long end of the body. After they were shopped the emblem was moved to the nose of the unit. Nice catch. Tony, No hard feelings. You see you and I have been here before. Nothing new here. Actually my information about the Santa Fe GP 7's is correct...see above. And check out this resource: Jack Whitmeyer Collection See Santa Fe locomotives page 2. As far as Bachmann, they earned their own reputation all by themselves. What I said can be considered a bashing but in reality it's the truth. Better to bash me then Bachmann...right? LOL I can't help but feel that the hobby shop you work for... purchases a high number of these units and any bashers simply aren't welcomed. Believe, me when I say you have nothing to fear. There will be Bachmann customers who will line up, buy up and operate all they can get there hands on. So, how are things going otherwise?
Hmmmmm..... What about this one, dated June 10th, 1952... Then there's this one.. BTW, that is a nice web page. Lot's of good 1950's stuff.. I sent it off to a friend that's a 50's ATSF modeler.. Thanks Rick!
As an N scaler, I'm getting tired of being "grateful" for what I get even from the best intentioned manufacturers, While Bachmann has satisfied the market with pretty good steamers and 44 and 70 tonners, I don't see much reason to spend 10s of thousand$$ on new tooling for engines (GP7, H16-44 among others) that already exist by well established Companies. This critisism also applies to Walthers. Who, quite frankly has all but ignored the N scale industry. Where is the new run of Erie Builts and other hard to find engines??? Con Cor, Very innovative line... M10000, Aerotrain, goose......but you have to remortgage the house for a 3 unit train!!!!! Well, the Geeps are here and I for one am not grateful!! ...stop giving us what we already have and spend development money on Little Joes, EP and box electrics, centercabs and last but not least prototypically correct steamers for the PRR and other roads that utilize over head lights and other specific designs. I feel that todays modeler/Collector is far to sophistcated to settle for poor marketing research, poor proto research, "Painted on roadnames" , one mold fits all models and a rehash of already existing models!!!. If Kato can develop and market GS-4s and GG-1s and Fox Valleys new Hiawatha with its reasonable price (about $275) for the set, regardless of the limited roadnames and by extention limited market....so can the other guys I do however, sincerly hope that all who have purchased the Bachmann gp7 have many years of enjoyment, Yes the price is right with DCC and they do look great.
Bachmann has produced a fine, well priced DCC unit that has good, not "great" details and is generally well painted and lettered. They made a few livery mistakes....many have done this......but Bachmann will be flayed for it by the Bach-hater union. This is a good unit; and it will never receive the credit it deserves because of a almost cult like dislike of Bachmann by some. It is as if Bachmann is not permitted to improve in the eyes of some. Bachmann's unit runs well in DC and DCC..... but we all know it's not a Kato...right.... Right; it's not a Kato like their GS 4 that blew decoders from Maine to California when released due to what can only be called crappy engineering. But Kato is the best... right ? Kato got a pass on that error from the Kato-haulics even though it took them weeks of silence to come up with a fix. If that had been Bachmann we'd have had a revolt ! Bachmann produces a value priced DCC locomotive that meets 95% of modelers needs and expectations; has few flaws, and ones that a modeler can fix (road number etc...) and they get bashed... Kato punts a ball out of the field of play with a major error and people fall over themselves to protect them... This hobby is something else.... forget the brand name; run the darn trains and have fun.
Re: worth buying/sales feasibility- It's a tough market for anything at all right now, brothers, and I bet it was a cheap job for Bachmann to have those GP's built seeing as the same factories are already tooled for, and building, Atlas' and Walthers' GP's (shared design and tooling on motors? gears? truck frames? I'm curious). Plus, Bachmann's always been about the mainstream. Probably always will be, too. GP's are as mainstream as it gets. Only thing more ubiquitous would be F-units, and Kato & IM have that on LOCK.DOWN. This is another step forward for Bachmann (out of the dark ages of white plastic gears and incandescent headlights pinched between frame halves), SO let's see where this takes 'em.... you see, they test the market with sure-sellers to see if their new ideas and innovations (low price point with DCC, high detail, etc.) will be a worthwhile venture going forward. Also, the roads they're doing aren't all exactly the big roads, like UP and ATSF, so I am SURE someone's stables will be getting filled with these! If you want more accuracy/detail/roadnames, you'll either have to wait... or pay more elsewhere. And Bachmann knows you know that. The fringe of modelers who want prototype road numbers, or year-specific DB details, etc.... you're not the majority- which is where Bachmann's target is placed, and their marketing cannon is permanently affixed & aimed. It's like you're asking Kia to build a BMW-killer I have a feeling a lot of off-forum, mainstream modelers are/will be quite happy with these new engines.....
Mixing the subject a bit here, but so many 'modellers' want locos fully detailed and done correctly for their favourite road, Bachmann produces a (what we call in Australia) Basix model that you can detail to your hearts content without getting details you don't want or don't suit. OK, next problem, there is another thread on another forum (maybe on here too), announcing the demise of a hobby shop/distributor/manufacturer that is/was/soon won't be a specialist detailing line. My only qualm is that I am not yet a total DCC convert, so I do like the option of buying my locos without a decoder, but the Bachmann system does certainly give fledgling DCCers an economic chance to try it out, and locos can be un-DCC'd just as they can be DCCed. In all honesty, will we ever be happy, it is human nature to rubbish, suggest, have all the knowledge in ones head, but only ever pass the ability on in writing. I am admittedly a runner as well as a gunna, but I do have a lot of projects on the workbench just itching for me to get away from this keyboard.
Tell ya what, I am going to order one of these darn locos. I have been looking around, and everyone says they run smooth, the dcc is good, lights are the right color. I don't even care if it's not NP, I am breaking my loco-buying rule and ordering a UP unit. They interchanged with NP a couple places, so...... *click* <--- the sound of me putting my money where my mouth is! I'll let y'all know
Well there are pro and con comments on Bmann. But since I go way back some of the following needs to be considered. Back when this scale was essentially a babe in swaddling there were a few manufacturers willing to take a chance on it. Apart from European manufacturers there was basically Bmann and Lifelike, along with Concor. Some of the old units still soldier on in service on layouts everywhere. Bmann filled a niche with some inexpensive stuff that got somebody with not much budget or allowance into the scale. Now mind you they have had some teething problems, but I have more dead Lifelike junk in my storage box than Bmann. In the last few years Bmann has made some substancial leaps of progress, in both mechanical and in detail quality. So has LL. Even CC is retooling some of the old stuff that still sells to a new batch of modelers. I now have ten of the Bmann newer steamers in the stable and they are all well detailed and fine running units. And a pair of the little 44 tonners has been added to the diesel roster. They join a couple of Kato steamers and are just as good. That said will I belly up to buy a GP7. No because they have yet to produce one in my roadnames and I have no desire to try doing a GN paint job and lettering at my age. However when they manage a GN, SP&S, CB&Q, or NP then I will get in line for at least two. And if they get a wrong number on a GN unit no problem since they had both non dynamic and dynamic units. So either just a matter of popping off the blister if possible, or just pulling out the old decal sheets and removing adding a number or two. That said hats off to Bmann for producing yet another fine loco that helps the fella with limited $$ get in the hobby with a degree of detail and quality for those $$s.
LOL I knew someone would find them. According to my family of rails, the first delivery of Santa Fe GP 7's, did not have the dynamic brakes, as previously stated. The first order was experimental and eventually took the place of those hard working stoves, yard goats. The second delivery of GP7's, as they liked the ease of service and wanted to use them on the mainline... did come with D/B's. AND in there somewhere arrived GP 7's with TT's and a boiler designed to pull small commuter like passenger trains. Finally, the ones you found and looked at I believe are miss-labeled by Jack as GP 7's (easy to do as they look alike), when they are actually GP 9's. Going back to what Westfallen indicated: ""According to The Santa Fe Diesel Vol 1 70 of Santa Fe's 250 GP7's came with dynamic brakes, all those with d/b lost them when they went through the rebuild program starting in 1972. My theory as to why most Santa Fe GP7's lacked d/b is that they were ordered primarily as replacements for steam on branch lines and locals and the railroad figured the expense of dynamic brakes weren't needed on all of them. Clinchfield's reasoning was probably the same"" End of quote Admittedly, there is confusion in the ranks of Santa Fe Rails as well as Rail Fans over this issue and this isn't the first time this has bounced around. As was explained to me by a shop foreman, the GP7's is/are/were the first delivery. They arrived on the property minus the D/B's and underpowered... low horse power. They were assigned to yard duty and some locals. Downside: Unable to handle mainline duty. The second delivery, requiring more horse power, is/was the GP9's with the D/B's for mainline running. Original orders of units with D/B's were problematic and saw poor performance and may account for the ones that were removed. The number of GP 7's accounting for 250 of them, seems high to me. Seeing they were experimental. I don't believe that many were ordered OR at some point the order was changed and upgraded to GP 9's...I suspect. Where it gets real confusing is that many of the GP 7's were actually shopped, a new prime mover installed, giving those weak fillies more horse power. No longer GP7's but a new entitlement given to them by Santa Fe. I read somewhere that a rebuilt GP 7 was known as a GP 7u. They were in essence brought up to GP 9 specifications. When shopped in this fashion many did receive the new upgraded D/B's for road service. A lot of the original GP 7's were shopped and rebuilt as is and put back out into passenger service with the TT's minus the D/B's. Example of this can be found in Jack's pictures, pulling what was commonly known to the then Rail Fan world, as the Chipewa Chief. The problem with most books, is they've been written by my fellow model rails and or rail fans...resulting in errors and conflict. See today's discussion...grin! I seldom use them as proof and evidence and read most of them with a grain of salt. However, Cynthia Priest, I believe the source of Westfallen's quote... has documented the Santa Fe and comes the closest to providing the facts as they are/were. I highly recommend you read her accounting. The other thing that is confusing is that different products arrived on the Santa Fe property, in a different order then say it happened in San Bernardino as compared to Kansas City. Also, when shopped the Kansas City shops might do something different then the San Bernardino shops. It gets real difficult to keep track of the details. I've been called a fake and phony in the past and if you wish to join those...hey...that's ok with me. No harm done. Just spelling it out the way I heard it and the way I remember it, as told by my family of Rails and there friends, who plied the Santa Fe Rails. I said with a reassuring smile.
Redirect You really know how to redirect a conversation...don't you...now there is a mgr., for you. LOL Yeah, they paint the chassis aka "underside". You ought to see one I have where the paint is peeling off.
"Bachmann GP7, am I getting too fussy?" - yes . It's a Bachmann, and all in all it's a very good model, especially for the price!
I come from a family of railroaders going back to the 1860's myself and have been one myself for 30+ years so I know that what the official railroad records say aren't necessarily what happened, but also that railroaders recollections and stories can vary widely from the facts as well. I've been trying to find something in print that says in black and white that the ATSF GP7's with d/b were either delivered that way or had them added by the railroad later but can't find anything definite, but I've still got a few books to find and look through. I think Diesel Era magazine did one of their comprehensive articles on ATSF GP7's a few years ago but I can't lay my hands on it. The proof that would hold up in court would be two photos of a d/b equipped unit, one of them taken at an earlier date that shows it without d/b, preferably an EMD builders photo. Until photographic proof shows up I'm tending to side with the railroad modification theory at the moment because Santa Fe's Diesel Fleet by Joe McMillan, another great authority on ATSF diesel power, gives the road numbers of the d/b units and they are spread randomly throughout the fleet and across several individual orders between 1950 and 53 giving the impression they were done at random on whatever unit was the next one to come into the shops. However some photos, including Mr Whitmeyer's shot of 2690 show d/b units in service at a very early date in their career while later GP7 (including d/b units) deliveries are still going on, you'd think that if Santa Fe had decided it needed d/b by this stage they would have gotten EMD to build the units that way. Maybe the truth is a little of each.
