do decoders become more and more rare as time goes on after its released like train releases do? im just asking because i dont have the cash to dcc my locos up all at once and may take years to do so. if i want something like a mrc 1644 for my kato sd70m 5 years from now, will they still be available or will i find myself on ebay hunting for a used one?
When you enter the world of DCC you also enter the world of electronics and computers (a decoder is nothing less than a specialized computer). This world has a super-fast invention and progress circle, which means that decoders you buy now will be technically obsolete in 5 years and therefore will not be produced then. I still have a lot of Lenz LE077XF decoders in my fleet. You cannot shoot them and none of them failed over the past 8 years. But you cannot get them any more (the successor is the SilverMini which has many more features and is smaller. In fact so small that I wish I had them at the time I modified the frames in those old Atlas and Kato locos.) Actually, all this is an opportunity as you will be getting more for the same money (adjusted for inflation). Michael
My knowledge of things electronic and electrical is "there's an AC and a DC current ..." then it gets real hazy for me. And, my prophetic ability trails my electrical knowledge. However, my observation is that DCC is still at the same level of development that personal computers were in the 1970's. Then, if you wanted a PC you pretty much had to do everything for yourself. I didn't, I waited, then bought a complete workable PC for less than the pieces/parts would have cost me in the 70's and the darn thing worked - not a sure thing if my labor was involved. Bachmann, for all the slams and slurs thrown at them by "serious" hobbyists, have shown the way into the future. Their new line of HO engines equipped with dual mode DCC/DC are a first. And, very affordable! I bought their "doodlebug" and am very pleased with it in all aspects. Fellow club members have bought their engines and the darn things work like a charm on either DC or DCC. Here comes the prophetic part, I think that within 5 years or so you'll buy an engine that is compatible with DC or DCC, it will come with an appropriate sound system, have momentum and M.U. capabilities that are easy to use - and a very user-friendly throttle. This, at probably a minimal price. At present, the offerings from the major suppliers are detail-wise at just about (or better than) brass. What will be the next enticement to buy their product?
I work in the computer / printer repair world and things change so fast in electronics. It wouldn't surprise me if in 5 years there making model trains with real steam / deisel engines that just do it themselves. (that was a advancement joke) PC repair is at times a nightmare when someone brings in a 2 yr old pc with all the advancements out there. Now the tablet pc's are here. I would think things would be the same with decoders but as mentioned above, for us, the advancements would be great.
Ah true i didnt think about the advancement part. Ive always thought dcc was pretty developed already. So lets say the world heads to preinstalled dual mode locos those like bachmann....that means its going to be pretty hard to upgrade my current locos huh.....just like those 2yr old comps? I guess with tech its all a gamble
The DCC standard is pretty developed, but not the components used to build a decoder according to the standard.... Even DCC evolves: sound, feedback from the decoder, zillions of advanced motor driving features - all in development now. One thing I would predict is that there will be decoders available for upgrading of older locos for a long time. I wouldn't worry about that as there are still many more locos out there that have not been upgraded... Michael
I would think that with these developments that easily installed "after market" decoders to retrofit older units would be available and be compatable with newly purchased units. That is certainly the case now and I would expect it will be in future.
The only decoder that I know of that's no longer available is for the ER Sharks. Shame too because it was the simplest installation out there. Took more time to remove and reinstall the shell that install the decoder. I've been DCC in N scale since 1996. Over that time the decoders have gotten smaller, cheaper, and with more features. TCS has a two piece decoder for the older non-dcc ready engines. These are universal so I wouldn't think they will quit making them anytime soon. Most of the manufacturers are using a similar board across DCC ready models. Many times the only difference is the length of the led leads on N scale boards. Those can be easily changed. MRC has upgraded their sound decoders. They are using new components and firmware but still fit the same models as previous versions. If all else fails, there is always the hard wired decoder. Little more work but most of the DCC ready engines have room for the new micro sized decoders. In fact, it's actually easier today to install a decoder in the old non-DCC ready engines than it was 5 years ago. Martin Myers
Actually, I bought my first lcomotives with factory installed dual mode decoders in 1999(Atlas N-scale SD-60's). Edit: I double checked, and the SD-60's came out in 2001, but the SD-50's and SD-35's were available in 1999 with a dual mode decoder.
I can't imagine caring all that much that a particular decoder is no longer being made. It's when I find out the train I want isn't being made anymore that bothers me. There's a difference between obsolete and collectable. They don't make my iMac anymore and I'm not losing too much sleep over it.
Interesting ideas but ther is only one flaw in the logic so far. The decoder designs are dictated by the locomotive manufacturers. So the Digitrax DN163K0A has been around for at least 5 years, and will be for longer because Kato stays to the same frame designs for the most part. The same with the DN163K1B and the DN163K2, they have been around for year and show no sign of going away. Atlas does the same so the decoders that fit the Atlas locomoitves will be around until Atlas changes the design. So while the external detailing etc get better and change, the drive unit is what drives the decoder design.
I dunno....I get the impression that the DCC world is rather sluggish to innovate. I have been using DCC and decodered engines for six years now, and apart from Digitrax's new duplex system and the odd new decoder announcement by Lenz or EULoksound, the now three-year-old Revolution from QSI, and such, I don't see a lot of change or advancement. I think the computer industry must be about six times faster. I would guess that in about 10-15 years many of us will be ripping out decoders of today and installing something 'else'. And that's only if the drive mechanisms coming out of the PRC stand up to 'normal' use.
What I think will happen is that the pre-installed DCC chip will become the standard of model trains over time. One day people will buy trains that have DCC chips in them and it will seem as odd to mention it then as saying a DC train has a light board now. Once they come with switching and wi-fi built in, everybody who's capable of setting up X-Box live will just use their computer or more likely their smartphone (or it's futuristic ilk) to control everything pretty much right out of the box. A big kitbashing trade still be around I guess, but there's only so much soldering you can expect people to do. If the DCC companies want to expand their market, they're going to have to make stuff MUCH easier to use and come preinstalled, which that includes track wiring. At least at the built in road bed starter set level. Here's the thing with progress on mobile decoders, there is only so much you can make a train do. They only have so many lights on them. Once you control the 2 couplers and make sound you've pretty much doing everything you can. So, how many functions do you really need? Do you need to animate every passenger on the train? Make the lights on cars in autocarriers turn on and off? As everything gets smaller, you'll see decoders on z-scale trains that have sound and all sorts of functions taken for granted now with large scale trains. But I only see G scale decoders getting capacitors that can run trains longer, getting more memory for more sounds, and better driving capabilities. Eventually we'll see Kstep speed control. That'll be cool, but most won't notice the difference. As a result I also see a lot of trains using "obsolete" decoders in the future once stuff becomes "good enough". Everything progresses. The fact that mobile decoders do it slowly is a blessing. Upgrades are usually a good excuse to raise the price.
CSX Robert - You are of course correct. Don't remember the year that I bought Atlas's SDP-35's and GP-40's (HO scale) but they were of course dual-mode equipped. However, to change from one to the other it was necessary to move the "jumpers" from one location to the other on the board. With the Bachmann, that is not necessary. That's the reason I made that statement.
The one thing decoders don't do now, despite it being really just a matter of making software/firmware on the decoder side, is providing a more realistic control system. Right now DCC is really just a digital emulation of your grandfathers DC pot control. While basic 1 step momentum has been added to decoders, it's still driving by cruise control. Believe it or not switching gets a lot easier and a lot smoother with a throttle and brake. I would foresee CVs being added to the decoder to let it switch between interpretting speed step commands as 'cruise control' settings like they are now, or as throttle/brake settings. In this world half the speed settings would be interpretted as braking, and half as throttle. Around speed step ~64 the locomotive would just coast. With things like RailCom and current discussions into block level communications (a second layer of information is added that is only received by decoders on the block, such as block number, grade, etc) you can go further. The decoder can report back scale speed and brake pressure, react correctly to grades or modify sound for tunnels and bridges.
The N-scale decoder equiopped locomotives do not have a DC/DCC jumper. I don't have any real-life experience with the HO decoder equiped locomotives, but my understanding according to the decoder manuals is that even with them you did not have to move the jumper to DC to operate it on DC. The purpose of the jumper was to bypass the decoder so that if you were running a decoder euipped loco with a non-decoder euipped loco you would not get the typical speed differential. Also, it would allow you to run the loco with PWM power packs, which decoder powered locos do not run well with.
CSX Robert - I have no experience with the N-scale units. However, both the HO scale SDP-35's and GP-40's came with the jumper plug in position for straight DC. To operate on the club layout (Digitrax) the jumper plugs had to be physically removed to the rear of the board. This is explained on the instruction sheets for each of the six units ( 3 ea. SDP-35 and 3 ea. GP-40). Upon receipt of the "doodlebug" I immediately tested it on my home layout (DC). When I took it to the club our DCC guru immediately put it on the track, programmed the unit into the system and it was ready to roll in about two minutes. As far as I know, it is still impossible to run DC units lashed up with DCC units. I would dearly love it were it so as I only have 10 DCC units and the other 50+ are DC.
If the real question is 'Can I find older decoders for cheaper prices?', then I think the answer is... -Yes, older decoders go for cheaper, but... -You'll pretty much only find them on eBay, and... -They will be few and far between. Also, some are cheaper for some good reasons, like that they used yellow or orange LEDs, or had poorer motor control than today's products.
