Our association layout calls for several mountains to be build in order to capture the essence of the area we are modelling. At least 3 of the mountains are to be around 3 feet high from the surface of the bench. Yesterday, we applied the bulk of the scenery, and other landscaping materials to our first of many smaller mountains and today I went to check on our handi-work. To say that I was totally disappointed in the results would be a monumental understatement. Before we even began, we watched numerous videos on the subject given by many, so called experts in this field, and read every book detailing how to do all the landscaping, step by step and we planned and collected everything we were going to need to make our mountain. We set up our forms, laid our lattice work and newpaper wads, then carefully applied our plaster cloth (2 layers) and then painted everything the base coat. To that point we were pleased with what we had accomplished. But then as we began to apply the different colours of paint to our mountain, we discovered that things that work perfectly in the videos and in print, do not always work in practical applications. Oh we followed the directions to the letter, mixing the desired colours to the correct proportions and using spray bottles on fine spray and holding them the recommended distance from the surface. But to our disappointment, the various colours of paint did not work as they were supposed to. Instead of the fine spray, the paint came out of the bottles in gobs. Instead of the paint running together to form the highlights of the rocks and crevices, it ran like water down the sides which was not what we wanted at all. Once we had applied the first two colours with no success, we tried the black but it only made things worse. The results we had strived for, as shown in the videos we had all watched, did not materialize. To be blunt, it was a disaster. It looked like crap! On another section we decided to try the leapord spotting techinique using only three colours as desmonstrated by Woodlands Scenics own spokesman and by a couple of other experts who used the same technique on their layout. This was an even bigger disaster. Yes we mixed the paints according to directions and used brushes, but the disappointment on all our faces could have been seen with the naked eye from the space station. We still had one section that we had not worked on yet and my son suggested we use the dry powder method and see if that worked. We spayed on our Woodlands Scenic Cement base coat, as the video instructed, and then set about applying the different turfs and textures, spaying the cement in between colours, again as recommended. This part actually didn't look too bad, however, when it came to adding the coarse foam to simulate underbrush and bushes, the difficulty began. We found that the materials did not adhere to the cement. Moreover, once this was done and we used the "WET WATER" to seal everything in place as again the books and videos describe, it became apparant that this techinque was no more effective then the other two. True all the flat or gently sloped areas where grass, weeds and such had been applied, stuck, but on the other areas such as around the edge and in the valleys, where bushes and undergrowth would normally be, none of this materail stuck to the surface. In checking it out today, I found that even after using the Scenic Cement and WET WATER, none of our bushes or undergrowth was secured to the surface. It was very easily moved just by breathing on it. I could even lift it up with absolutely no problem at all. There was no resistance as one might expect if it had been sealed as it was supposed to be again according to the videos and the books. I called my son and told him what I found, and he was really pissed. After two weeks of planning, forming, gluing and such on what we had hoped would be our first success at mountain building, our attempt to put scenery on our mountain met with total failure. Even though the grasses and weeks stayed where we put them even on the radical slopes, the bushes and undergrowth, which were to form the base of the forest of trees we were planning on installing, moved about the layout like they were victims of a tornado. It was pathetic to say the least. I really don't understand why things that work so perfectly on videos or in books, don't work in practical application even when the directions are followed to the letter and you do everything right. We have a show to do in 6 weeks and we wanted this module to be a focal point of our layout so far, but now we are faced with two alternatives. Either tear the whole mountain down and change our theme to something that requires only flat or gently rolling sufaces, or mix up gallons of Elmer's School Glue, the clear stuff, and apply that to every dam bush and piece of undergrowth and fix it in place with pins, and then pour more glue over the top in an effort to get the crap to stay were it is supposed to. Then apply all our trees. Through all of this I am forced to wonder if these products are as good as they say they are or actually work the way Woodland Scenics say they will. Why isn't it working for us? This stuff is supposed to be so easy to use, and work so well, that a 5 year old could use it and get perfect results. Well, I'm here to tell you, IT AIN'T SO! And WET WATER doesn't do what it is supposed to do either. It doesn't seal anything. At least, not on our layout. All it has done so far is stay wet and not dried. What a mess!
One thought comes to mind... If this is something you've never done before, then a recommended course of action is to practice first, rather than turn a large, permanent layout into a "mess." Cut up some scraps of foam into one-by-two foot chunks, and work on those. Get the hang of the processes involved. It's not something that one can master right off the bat, even when armed with every available piece of documentation. It looks easy on the videos and in the books simply because the people doing it have done it before, often many times. You can't expect to pick up a brush and paint the Mona Lisa on your first try.
Ok Ken, Whoa, big boy.....stop, take a deep breath, get off the horse and look at the saddle......... By that I mean you are the problem, not the materials. Now don't get mad at me and tell me to go take a hike. Be patient and hear me out, and perhaps many others who have gone on before. These products are good, they do work like they are described in videos and books. Wet water does exactly what it is supposed to do, but there is one element to this story that is the obvious variable.....you. David points out that you are 'new' to this and you can't deny that fact. From experience I can honestly tell you that these things take TIME, TIME, TIME and it sounds like you rushed it a bit. I can understand your excitement about having your mountains finished in plenty of time for the upcoming show, but being inexperienced in this area of modeling, you don't realize that you can not build a mountain in a short time just as Rome was not built in a day. Let me explain a bit. First off, I assume your mountain base coat was dry and solid. But what you don't mention is whether you had more than two coats of plaster cloth as a surface. I most often go to the added expense and time to coat my plaster cloth with a layer of Sculptamold which hardens into a very solid base for application of trees, bushes, grass, etc. This material alone takes several days to dry thoroughly and if you don't have the base absolutely dry, then your foundation is 'soggy' and is not strong if you are attempting to put more scenery on it before it is set up solidly. All that 'spraying' is adding a lot of moisture to your mountains which will take a lot of time to dry out. And the coloring of mountains is a slow tedious process. Sometimes you must let one layer of color dry before you add another. Depends on materials and techniques being used. In planting your tree and shrubs, you can't expect to do it all in a couple of days. I have spent many days overall in planting my forests on my modules. It has been a very slow painstaking endeavor to accomplish what I have done......over a period of several years. Now you may have much more time to devote to your mountains than I have in the past, but still you can't do it quickly. It just doesn't happen that way. In my case, I have used Elmer's glue straight from the bottle in small dabs or the craft glue in small dabs to secure each and every bush individually to the sides of the mountains. Sometimes they fall off and I have to go back and add more adhesive to get them to stick. I've even used CA if I wanted it to stick immediately. All this takes a great deal of time and patience. I've grown bored out of my mind and suffered tired feet and sore back when standing for sometimes hours applying scenery. Not trying to be unkind Ken, but again, it is 'pilot error' and not the airplane that isn't correct here. I wish I could personally be there to give you some free advice, (take it or leave it type) to aid you in building your mountains, but of course that isn't possible. This may not be your problem but be sure your base is solid and dry first before you wet the surface with wet water. I personally do not use wadded newspaper to contour mountains. That is very old school and not near as solid and strong as foams now used to a great deal. It sounds like your sprays were not diluted enough if they came out of the bottle in globs? Maybe? If your base is/was solid before applying the glue to secure the shrubs and stuff, then applying all that liquid would tend to weaken and soften the base. Was that a problem? I think bottom line is that you were trying to accomplish too much too quickly. These things take time, time and more time and you must not attempt too many steps at once. You can rarely hurry up in this hobby. Hope you aren't teed off at me, I'm only trying to help. I'm sure others can chime in here and offer some hints. I have by no means covered everything adequately, but do feel that your desired results are possible if you do things differently than what you have attempted thus far. If others have done it, then it is possible for you to do the same. Loren
I agree with David, practice makes perfect. I do cheat on trees though I just put some CA on wax paper and just touch the bottom of the trees to it and plae them. For under brush or bushes I do a similar technique with white glue, put it on wax paper and just dab the bottom of the bushes and stick. For actual ground cover I have never had a problem with the 50/50 white glue water mix. If I am attaching rocks I use the 1/3 water, 1/3 white glue 1/3 alcohol technique. Drying time is important. I live in the desert and at about 102 degrees in 10% humidity it still takes about 4 hours to set and over night to dry "rock hard". As for paint I always use an airbrush so I wouldn't know how spray bottles work, but sometimes adding a bit more thinner or water will make a huge difference with acrylic paints. For mountains I work dark to light, but I never use black. It kills the eye and creates an unatural focal point. (You'll never see black in nature except for maybe coal) I usually use gray and dark blue or purple, then start to dry brush lighter colors on top of that. Take it for what its worth. Your Mileage May Vary. Zac
Yes, they're as good as they say, but as David suggests, practice first! There are instructions available how to build a race car. To jump into the race without serious testing of the car (beside the required skill to drive it), is not a bright idea. Start your scenery practice with small mock-ups, dioramas, then when you're happy with the results, go for the larger projects. But even when you're an expert scenery artist, it's easier and safer to build large components on the work bench, then after being satisfied with the results, install and blend them into their final location. Trust me, I have a long list of failed projects.
Thanks Dave for you comments and you are right about trying to be an expert when you are only an ameteur. None of did any testing on any of the materials to see what worked and what didn't. We all freely admit that after reading and re-reading the available books etc, we felt we could accomplish the same thing. Obviously we were wrong. We should have taken the time to as you put it, practice and scraps before attempting the full project. We are just debating now how to resolve this problem. One thing we are considering is using some kind of glue, white or clear to do what wet water didn't for us. We don't have a great deal of time and we can't start over so we have to make due with what we have. It has been suggested that we remove all the bushes and undergrowth at least for now, and just apply our trees since they all stick directly into the foam etc. The layers of ground cover, earth tone turf, light green fine turf, dark green course turf, and yellow ocra, will have to suffice until we can do what Loren has suggested. At least this will get us through the show with some sort of dignity if you know what I mean.
Being around here as long as I have I can tell you many a member has shared their mistakes and the membership was there to help them through it. I've let to attempt my first real layout and I know I will make my fair share of mistakes even after being warned but I tell you, people here will certainly try to help you before and/or after you make them which is what makes this place so great.
There shouldn't be any pressure nor deadline. This is a hobby. We had very successful shows with one or two unfinished plain plywood modules, a few with barely carved pink or blue foam, all as part of a larger layout... Actually unfinished, under construction modules are proven to be great conversation starters. Focus on the important things; to participate, run trains and talk to people.
If you post up some photos there may be some suggestions we could make for some quick improvements for your show, then maybe more long term solutions? Phil
Hey Zac. In retrospect, black does seem to be an odd colour to use in scenery building, but in every video we've seen and in every book we've read that indicates the use of acrylic paints, black always seem to be the third colour applied to rock faces and such to fill in cracks and crevices and for highlighting other colours. On our mountains we were using five colours; stone, slate grey, black, forest green and burnt sienna as decribed in one video. In two other videos yellow ocra, burnt umber, and black as a wash to flow into cracks etc and to highlight were used. The rocks and mountains, at least out here, do have a certain amount of black in them, but it is combined with the greys and browns and so is perhaps less noticeable. I suppose that's why it is used in these videos. Perhaps we should leave it out and just use the other colours. One thing is certain though. Our time is growing short and as I explained to Loren, we still have to reconnect the modules of our layout, all the track and wiring and do numerous test runs before it all comes apart for transport. We can't afford to spend another two weeks on scenery when the rest of this has to be done. Perhaps if we have time before the big day, we will revisit the scenery issue. I am going to use your suggestion though of the 50/50 glue to water mix to secure the bushes and undergrowth. If that doesn't work, there is always contact cement.
With this failure, we have learned much. We will put this into use as we proceed with our layout. The mistakes we have made here will serve us down the road. I hope.
We have already done this at the last show we were in back in April. We are trying to show progress. That's why we wanted to have two modules completed and one or two more in different stages of construction and the last modules as simply a turn around for continuous train operation. We were actually striving for a progression of construction from planning and track laying, to finished product. It's not working out that way as we have spent too much time on this first mountain. But somewhere along the line, we will get there. What we have planned is a 10 year project and our goal is to have at least two modules completed each year with at least one more in various stages of construction.
Phil, believe me when I say, if I could, I'd be only two happy to post photos of what we have so far, but two things prevent this. 1. I tried posting photos here before and it didn't work. Somthing about incompatible programs with my photo stuff and Trainboards design. I didn't understand it then and I don't have the time to understand it now. 2, the cameral that I would normally use to take such photos is broken and I don't have another one to use. However, maybe I can get my son or Dave to take photos and perhaps their photo programs will work with Trainboard. I shall investigate this further.
One thing is certain. We have to get things right since I don't want to be showing up at this show with something that looks like a child put together in a weekend. We want to be proud of what we are building and if a few lousy bushes are going to stand in our way then BURN EM!
If/When you get photos, let me or others know and we can help you get them uploaded. Pictures tell tons of things that text words just can't describe...
Believe me, I've been through the same. And I've helped others get through it, too. Honestly, when it comes to scenery, it's rare that one needs to start over from scratch. In a worst-case scenario, all of the existing groundcover can be scrubbed away with a stiff bristle brush. Then, slap a few coats of really cheap grey or tan latex paint over everything--and I mean everything. This basically gives you a brand new terrain surface to begin a new round of groundcover work. If some rock faces are needed, apply some lightweight wall compound on it and hack at it with a putty knife until it's got a rough, rocky surface. Then stain it with a very thin black wash (black paint thinned down about 5:1 with water). For securing ground foam and other terrain materials, white glue thinned 50:50 with water is still the very best bonding agent known, and guaranteed to dry. Just one little wrinkle--test it first. Bottom line, you could have the scenery reworked and presentable in one to two afternoons.
John: This is my first layout in many, many years. In the 60's I had an HO layout on 2 4x8 pieces of plywood but it was no where near as elaborate as the one we are making now. It was just green paint on the plywood to simulate grass, greyish brown for track bed, and dark grey for roads. Very amatureistic to be sure. Of course I was just a teenager then. Seems like back when the wheel was first invented. In the mid to late seventies, I tried my hand at N scale but that too was just track layed on modules around our rec-room and completely undecorated. This one was something I had hoped my sons would be interested in. But even though they were to some extent, it never went anywhere so what I had was sold. I started this z-scale layout just about 3 years ago as a project for my retirement years and this IS my first attempt at making it look much more realistic then just track laid on plywood.
Ken, Thanks, that helps all of us know your expereince level (no offense meant cause we all have expereince levels) so that we, each in our own way with our own experence levels can help you out with this. All the advice of test out the process your trying first is THE best sound advice I know. I do it often before I actually lay paint to canvas. When you're ready post some photos so we can see the "patient" and help with a remedy. Yours, John
