Sorry Charlie, but I’m going to have to pick on you here. This is the classic argument I seem to see when the issue of cost is brought up. The argument you are making about certain other luxuries is quite irrelevant. While I personally have no such luxuries in my life, making suggestions about how people should spend their money is an easy way sidestep the whole cost issue. People may be wasting their money on these things, and perhaps you are correct that some can cut these things out to better afford this hobby, but that’s not the point. The point is that people ARE spending their discretionary money on these things FIRST, as opposed to this hobby. That is the issue at hand. These things are the newer competition to hobbies that the industries need to start dealing with. Telling them they need to re-prioritize their spending not the way to do it! This argument reminds me of how an LHS owner always complained to customers for comparing internet prices with his. He argued how they where taking great risks and not getting any service with Internet dealers. He may have been right, but did this address his problem? No. His customers just walked out the door and made their purchases on-line anyway.
I contend that model railroading is cheaper that it was a half century ago as a percent of disposable income. I distinctly recall that my first scale locomotive kit, a Mantua HO scale Eight Ball Mogul, cost $29.95. At this time, my father bought a Chevrolet Bel Air hardtop for $1645.00. Now, neither the Mogul nor the Chevy had anywhere near the features of the latest model locomotives or automobiles. The Chevrolet is now at least twelve times the price of the 1953 model. At that rate of inflation, a model locomtive should cost $360.00. But wait, we have not one, but two Moguls available in N scale. Full list on one (MDC's) is $190 (6 times 1953), while the second (Atlas') is $120 (4 times 1953). As to the contention that the "average family's income has gone down", we were an average family then, but had only one automobile, one TV set, a 2 bedroom, 1 bath tract house and my parents paid monthly electric, telephone, water, and garbage bills. Today's "average" family expects far more than that and has far more monthly obligations, like cable, ISP, and cell phone bills.. Oh well, this is always a good topic to get the juices flowing! [ 30. August 2004, 18:30: Message edited by: Thirdrail ]
It is correct that the average wages have declined as has disposable income, and personal debt has increased in general. The CPI is based on outmoded economic theory. Many if not most economists do not believe it is a valid indicator any more because it does not include health care, educational, fuel and utility costs, all of which have increased way beyond the rates of inflation. It is a valid point that production has been shifted to low wage countries, yet the prices have held steady at best, but with each new release the price creeps up. Go back to the late 70's and early 80's - there were plenty of ads for N scale in MR. It was in the 90's that its N scale coverage began to seriously decline. N scale needs a mid range price point product, much like HO has enjoyed for many years.
Guys We are truly bless with the BEST N scale ever made and it can only get better in the years to come. Yes,todays hobby prices regardless of scale has shot through the roof and far beyond that. So,seeing I am not rich I over came the price problem by buying at the best discount I can find and buying use if need be..Of course being a bachelor helps that as well. But this was not always the case when I had a family and the well known costs of having same.So,I modeled on a rather tight bugit.If I didn't need it then I didn't buy it.My N scale roster of the 80s was made up of 6 AHM RSD15s,6 Bachman GP40s,4 Atlas/Kato RS3s,1 Bachman F7 and 2 Minitrix FM switchers.I had 102 cars. When I sold my N scale and return to HO I use the term "use" loosely..You see the locomotives was just about woren out from 12 years of use except the RS3s.Then they showed signs of heavy use.. The point is the hobby is still affordable IF you buy wisely and not try to buy every locomotive and car made.Buy only what you need..Of course I should have followed my own advice.I have far to many locomotives in HO.However,I did wise up and limited myself to my current C&HV N scale roster plus 4 NS units even though there are many locomotives I would like to buy..
Bruce in MA- I wasn't justifying the cost of hobby items by saying other things have gone up more..... If you chart the Cost of Model Railroad items against wages you will find that it cost more to buy a $60 train (the cost of a mid-range decent Lionel or American Flyer set or a major or O Scale locomotive kit and supplies) in 1954 than it does to buy a comparable set in 2004.... and you would have to ignore the increases in quality and features that we now enjoy. If you rather spend your money on different things, fine..... just look objectively at the cost of the Hobby of Model Railroading....... not only only has the relative cost of the Hobby remained even or decreased over time, but it is one of the few leisure time activities that I know of that retains a fair residual value..... I am sure that I have investments in items in my collection that I can trace back to my original American Flyer trains (which I wish, for sentimental reasons, I still had some of)..... IMHO it is not a case of looking at the glass and one of us seeing it half full and the other half empty...... the glass runneth over..... you may not like the taste of the beverage or may look at the spill as a big mess, but the fact is this is the Golden Age of Model Railroading as evidenced by the great range of new products and companies that are making products and the viability of the scales, many of which didn't even exist not too many years ago or have just come of age, G, O, S, HO, N and Z..... and the vigor of people enjoying them.... garden railroaders, operations groups, NTRAK, the attendees at Train Shows, Railroad Museums, etc., etc.... Many will point to the demise of Local Hobby Shops, a decline in NMRA membership, losses in some magazines' circulation, and the substitution of other kid's interests for toy trains as signs of decline in the future of the Hobby while ignoring the underlying changes that cause these effects and the positive trends that have replaced and may even have exceeded their negative impact. Declines in individual retail stores vs. chains (a national trend in all retail) has been balanced off by mail order and internet sales, the internet and less formal groups provide comradeship and networking beyond traditional organiztions, information is available through more print sources (thanks to desktop publishing) and the internet, and the viability of Model Railroading as an Adult Hobby (recognizing the always tenuous link between kid's toy trains and Model Railroading) is just as assured through Thomas the Tank Engine, Railroad Museums, and Public Train Shows. I too tend to think in terms of yesterday's prices for today's merchandise..... when I shop at the grocery store I can't imagine how a box of cereal can cost $3.80 AND not even have a coupon inside for a free HO Globe F7 or an O27 Kusan locomotive or freight car kit..... but expecting to pay $20 for a Kato locomotive in today's economy is not realistic...although, thanks to the internet and our free market economy some real bargins can be found out there at train shows and on the internet if one really wants to acquire equipment on a tight budget..... This thread was started under the title of STOP B***HING AND MOANING and I really can't see the productive impact that finding negatives in a Hobby will have. This is not to say that providing feedback on techniques, prototypes, product quality, customer service, etc., etc. isn't useful... the world isn't perfect and informed, reasoned input may be helpful to others. There is so much to celebrate and share....just look at the wonderful work we see on this board and others.... I, for one, have made very dear friends through the Hobby (throughout the world thanks to forums such as this and NTRAK and the N Collector Conventions) and learn something every day from fellow Model Railroaders. As our departed friend Don Brown always said, eNjoy! Charlie Vlk
I think that is a key point for me. Whenever I get together with a bunch of friends, we do grumble and complain a bit but overall I think our discussions tend to be more positive. There is a lot of encouragement and sharing and just having fun. I guess I am a people person and locking myself away to model something that would not see the light of day, will not really benefit me or the hobby. If people are inspired enough, they will find a way to have fun regardless of any financial limitations.
I couldnt agree with you more Charlie, I believe the hobby offers more value for money than it did in the past. Yes we have more models to spend our hard earned money but you have to prioritise your needs against wants. I too have made many friends through this hobby and it has aldo enhanced my Professional career as well. I definately have nothing to moan about and look forward to a lifetime of this hobby.
Arrrgghhh!!! Over at the "other forum", there's complaints about too much Santa Fe stuff produced, complaints about the new Athearn Sieco boxcar. Now please understand, to voice one's opinion about what models they would like to see made, doesn't fall under the b***ching and moaning category, but this other stuff...! Jeez! I can truly appreciate this forum! Thanks!
Offering criticism of a new models' shortcomings is NOT bi***ing and moaning. If a customer feels a product has shortcomings, the product does indeed have shortcomings, as it is the customer that is the ultimate authority on the suitabilkty of a product for his wants or needs. Personally, I think the criticism of the method of mounting the trucks on the Athearn cars (Yes, I have purchased one), is perfectly valid. Forums are an excellent source of customer opinion for the manufacturers - and a great many read the Atlas forums for that reason. I live over 100 miles from the nearest hobby shop, and really appreciate other's kvetches about new products, as it helps me make buying decisions.
Thirdrail- The entire point was the wonderful increase in products available over the last few years without a very large increase in prices.
I'll throw my hat in with Charlie and the other "these are the good ole days" with a few observations. First, I think the B****** and M****** is actually America's No. 1 Hobby. Our other hobbies (bosses, spouses, and clients, too) are only an excuse for us to participate in hobby numero uno. A few have noted that prices creep up with each new release. While some of this is simply the inflation of producing goods, much of any price increase is INCREASED DEMAND. If demand is increased such that it allows a rise in prices, this is a good thing, showing that the hobby is strong. As to incomes going up and down, it seems that dual income familes are better off than ever before. Single income familes struggle a bit (although todays small homes are equipped equally to upper middle class homes of the 50's), and divorcees find that the old maxim of "two can live as cheaply as one" to be true the hard way. Thats what the national news weeklies have to say on it anyway. I'm not sure how to refute the CPI argument raised. I know they modified the formula a few years ago to generally lower the index, as they found that many consumers were turning to generics and name brands lost their ability, in large part, to charge premium prices. However, I do recall reading about a spike in the CPI this summer, which was generally attributed to the cost of oil.....so I think it is figured in to that "basket of goods" they use. In fact, I've always thought it was high. If a new refrigerator is figured in, or the cost of cars, those are things we buy every five to ten years, and only pay a portion of the cost increase. Many will say it was Congress' way of lowering Cost of Living Index increases in Social Security without acttually telling seniors this was what they were doing, for political reasons. I'll let you decide! The statement I agree with most (in principle, but I'av not always lived it) is that it isn't an expensive hobby, once you have a reasonable locomotive collection! If we all modeled three engine short lines, we would spend almost nothing on this hobby, but we can't seem to control ourselves. Such is the nature of addiction.....
Hmm... These certainly are good days for N. That being said, what would we do here if we didn't offer a little constructive criticism now and then? The last thing I want this forum, or any that has the eye of manufacturers, to send a message that their customers are sheep that will buy anything. I'm not suggesting anyone is saying that here, shoot I haven't even read the entire thread. Just an observation...there is always a role for well-thought-out constructive criticism. I welcome it on my layout, and I welcome it here... So how would we define b&m behavior? I'll let that for others with more forum time to debate...
This is an excellent topic and some great discussions. I believe we have it better now than ever but yes the availablity of equipment does tempt most of us to spend whatever spare cash we have left. As Jeff said though not everyone has to buy all the new products that are on offer. I for one now limit myself to locomotives in the era i model so as much as it is tempting to purchase more of the new products I have decided to ease off a little. I have recently purchased a new airbrush, 3 secondhand locomotives and lots of detail parts to modify a couple of these locos. On the other hand I know of a modeller who is buidling all of his building from secondhand materials, only owns a couple of locomotives but is enjoying the hobby on a limited budget just as much as I do. Yes we should still criticise if a product is not to the standard we have become accustomed too, hence the outcry of the first release of Tunnel Motors by Intermountain yet the imrpovement of the second release is documented proof that manufacturers do take notice. Keep the posts coming guys as I said earlier this is an excellent topic for discussion.
I was not considering continuing to reply to this subject, but as the “Colonel” seems to appreciate the discussion and wants to keep them posts coming, I figure I’ll give it one more go. My “B***** & Moan” has never been about what we don’t have yet, why something was done as opposed to something else, or how prototypically incorrect something is if you hold a magnifying glass up it. Yes, I do agree that (as Charlie put it) that our glass is overflowing. No argument there. However, how can you enjoy what’s in the glass when you can’t afford the drink? That’s my point. To be able to enjoy this hobby (or any other), you have to have access to it. Some access is easy because it doesn’t really cost anything, like this forum. But a key part of having access is being able to afford that part that does cost something. With all that is available to entertain people out there, what do you think goes through an average persons mind when they walk into a LHS and see all the prices? Humm, $100 for a decent DCC equipped loco or a new DVD player? A couple of turnouts or a new video game? A couple of MT cars or a memory upgrade for my PC? Or in my case, more scenery supplies or school supplies for the kids? Are you guys starting to get this yet??? The first president Bush lost to Clinton on the economy. Do you remember the infamous “It’s the economy, stupid”? I think a similar thing needs to be said of this hobby: “It’s the cost, stupid.” Jeff recently made these observations: So you think it’s a good sign when MRR manufacturers control (tighten) supply so they can raise prices? Demand has only so much elasticity within a hobby (which has a great deal of competition these days), so I seriously doubt that this is even remotely a good business model (no pun intended) to substantially grow market share. Ahhh, the national news weeklies, that explains it all now. Jeff, time to find a better source of information! As an aside to this topic, the trends you noted are fixed more to higher debt load than anything else. Many have discovered how to consolidate their personal (credit card) debt into their mortgage, and get more cash via a refinancing package (tapping their house equity). This clears their short term debt and allows them to continue on their merry spending ways. If the real estate market falls, unfortunately so will a lot of people. But I digress. Back to one of Charlie’s recent comments: And there lies the flaw in logic. Did you choose this hobby “objectively”? I certainly didn’t get into this hobby because I thought it was one of the “few leisure time activities that I know of that retains a fair residual value”. I got into it because trains and modeling appealed to me. I also certainly didn’t get my $17 Lifelike GP20 because of residual value; I got it because it was a bargain on a nice loco that I could afford! I wonder if you’re speaking more of collectors than modelers? Charlie, I agree with you that there is a lot to be excited about in this hobby. Many new things have come down the road, and much more is waiting to come out. But I often feel like one of those kids that’s peering in the toy shop window at something that he knows won’t be waiting for him under the Christmas tree this year (or maybe ever). I’m also watching other kids pass by snickering “Why do I want to spend so much to get into trains when I can get (fill in the product) that’s easier and more fun to play with”. Sorry to carry on so long (and passionate) about this, but this issue does currently hit home. This year I’ll be making the decision to let my Ntrak club membership lapse, and to dramatically scale back my involvement in this hobby. I represent one of those one income families (with young children) who is unwilling to spend beyond my means and take on high levels of debt that seems to be a commonplace these days. I have a layout and will still occasionally run trains, but I just can’t afford to keep up a level of involvement that simply costs too much in time and money. Say what you will about my decision, but my family comes first and I’m simply getting tired of hobbies that cost so much! Phew. Vent over. Feel a little better now. Thanks.
Bruce: Lots of good points I had not considered. Good post. I haven't thought about all of it enough to know if I agree with everything, but still a lot of good points. I'll have to re-read it a few times. But, I do think the new quality is excellent. I do not hesitate to open up a new offering to see how it works and to try to improve it, no matter how good it is.
