About Brass Locos and Rolling Stock

I'm sorry, but I need some advice and information about brass. I spent an hour this Thursday and went through every item on epay under the brass HO heading. I roughly added up a total of $35,000 worth of brass products for sale. Some of these locos were in the $1500 to $2000 range. This all got me to thinking and I have some questions.

First, Why brass in 2012? Do we need it? Will some of these 40 year old models convert to DCC?

Second, Are these buyer collectors? Do they ever run them on their layouts? Do they paint them?

Third, Are these brass beauties even made anymore? Where do all these models come from?

Fourth, You tell me. I'm simply flabbergasted at the prices and reasoning on this subject. Jim:tb-biggrin:

 

Howdy-FIRST"There are collectors who want nothing but brass, any brass loco can be converted to DCC but some take a fair amount of work.
SECOND: Collectors rarely run their toys, when it's run it "loses" value". Many brass collectors don't have layouts, they are not modelers and some do get their locos professionally painted (I make money doing it)
THIRD:Oddly enough, brass locos are still being made. Unusual locos or cars are the prefered models. IE: No die cast manufacturer would want to spend thousands on an HOn3 or On3 (or On30) DSP&P Mason Bogie 2-6-6 or an HOn30 or On2 Kennebeck Central 0-4-4t. Many of these older brass locos come from estates where the widow is faced with trying to sell toys that the late hubby bought and kept for "someday". You know, I don't think God lets you take these things with you when you check out!

FOURTH: As long as guys with very deep pockets continue to spend high bucks for brass, there will be brass locos made.

I hope this all makes sense, it's just the way I see it.


Woodie

 

Hi Woodie, Thanks for the reply. Much as I figured, but I'm glad you came up with your views. I guess I'm the weird guy. Yesterday I missed out on 40 year old brass beauty that went for about $500. I just couldn't get that much money together. I was going to paint it, weather it, get it DCC'd and be the envy of my block! Jim:biggrin2:

 

Some of us do paint, weather, and operate our brass locos. I bought this one about 20 years ago and finally got around to painting it and adding DCC a couple of years ago. The biggest operational drawback is the lack of all-wheel power pickup.

 

I operate mine as well This SD70Ace was purchased about three years ago from OMI and it runs quite often on my home layout. ANd many others do as well. I purchase them for the detail of the models. Although I must admit that plastics have definitely caught up in recent years and continue to make strides in both N scale and HO. Here soon I would presume that plastics will be equal to Brass and won't have to venture to increasing cost of the Brass models.

 

While brass was THE item to have because of its general exclusivity for the vast majority in any one scale, and that was largely due to the exquisite attention to fidelity with the prototypes (they really are beautiful scale models of the real thing with lots of eye candy soldered/braised onto the frames and shells), the fact is that a lot of it did not run very well. Balance was a problem at times, motoring and drivetrain were iffy, or the electics were a nightmare and at best unreliable. This is not a general condemnation, but the oldtimers who have responded to such questions in threads across the forums seem to share a consensus that brass can be a real challenge to run well IF you wanted to run it...and most do not, particularly if they want unpainted brass.

Nowadays, with such fine technology and generally cheap labour markets, diecast and plastics have all but caught up, and have certainly closed the gap enormously. But those who have a few brass locomotives and some plastic and diecast will tell you that there is a tangible difference, not to mention that the nod on the detailing still goes to brass, as far as the 'feel' of the locomotive or car in one's hand.

For me, some suspension of disbelief and a lot of imagination have to run parallel to the tracks with the moving trains for me to enjoy the hobby. The more foobie intrusions there are, such as the grossly oversized popular ground throws, smoke that looks more like a cigarette butt is puffing inside the boiler, and others, the harder it is for me to enjoy the hobby. I can accept the sounds from decoders, tinny though they may be, and I know the innards of the steamers are nothing like the real thing, or that the boiler has large metal framing and weights instead of tubes and water.....all that is of no consequence...as long as the valve gear and rods, and the wheels look good, and the chuffing and lights work, I can get past the missing details, the cast-on piping in many cases. But, to return to brass, it is that much easier, still, to suspend that disbelief. For me (and no, I am not a huge collector of brass) I have to brass hybrds from BLI and just recently purchased my first all-brass steamer, a Sunset CPR 2-10-4 Selkirk. Looking at the running gear in motion, I would have to say it is no better than a BLI hybrid, and maybe the piston rod is a little sloppier on the Sunset. Darn.

 

I own brass, and I run it. Have for over 30 years. I have loco's made in the mid 1960's that run like swiss watches even today. I have doubts that many of the plastic diecast engines of today will still be running 40yrs from now. Getting the brass to run well isn't hard for anyone with any mechanical skill.

The reason for brass was it is a way to get prototype specific locos. Example; There simply isn't a market for a mass produced SRR F-1 4-6-0's. Yet I got one in brass.

The brass market was built on this principle, offering RR specific engines with ample details for the model railroader. The "collecting" of brass as an investment started in the 1980's and many brass builders started offering their wares for this market and not the market that it was built on. Many of these locos ran poorly due to small motors, improper weight etc. Although this period is over, it did major damage to the market, along with several of the manufacturers getting out of the business, it drove many of the everyday Joes, who did buy brass, out of the market.

The high price of brass nowadays is due mostly IMHO, because of this investment period of manufacture. The runs got smaller, meaning the prices went up to pay for these smaller runs. I can remember when runs were in the hundreds of engines, instead of today merely 10's or 20's of units.

I don't buy new brass as it is too expensive. I buy strictly used brass, of which most costs less than the new diecast and plastic monsters that are available now.

I paint it, decal it and weather it. I install DCC, and will re-motor and re-gear the loco as necessary.

Here's a photo of one of my brassies. Its a loco I know will never be offered in plastic.

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I would elaborate just a bit on Woodie's earlier and quite correct response. What few hobbyists appreciate today is that, from its beginnings, imported brass models created a totally new, distinct and separate hobby in and of itself outside of the model railroading hobby. Likewise, in time it extended to miniature vehicles, ships, aircraft, et al. that can often be even far more expensively priced than our trains. Those whose specific interest was/is in the collecting of brass models rarely mingle with those of us on-line who purchase brass locomotives for the purpose of operating them on a model railroad. Thus, replies to threads questioning the motives for buying brass models almost never come from the true collectors.


I will point out, however, that in its early years, brass did also form a major segment of the model railroading hobby, with a great many average hobbyists owning one or more examples of what was then really quite reasonably priced brass models. To the surprise of many today, moderate-sized examples (Moguls, Pacifics and Mikados) were often priced similarly to the much more generic die cast engines of the day. There was actually a time, back in the 60's, when something like 25% of all hobbyists owned some piece of brass, be it a locomotive or some piece of rolling stock.


As Woodie also accurately indicated, when brass became recognized as a potential investment item in the 80's, it drove the prices sky high and moved the buying of brass models largely out of the range of most would-be model railroad operators. Today, new brass exists as an exclusive market almost totally removed from the modeling hobby with a very small (and I believe dwindling) buying public.

And...to anyone who wishes to claim that today's high quality plastic models negates the need to purchase brass any longer let me say that such opinions are held only by those who have never truly examined a quality brass steam locomotive model close-up. There is still no comparison between the two.


NYW&B

 

I didn't mean to ruffle feathers of those fellows who actually love and run brass locos, I just call em' as I see em'. I have owned lots of brass over the years, beginning with PFM HOn3 C&S 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 which retailed for $34.95 and $39.95..quite a bit for a teenager to pay. I watched the prices jump within the span of a few years, a PFM 4-6-0 which cost $49.95 jumped to over 3 bills and more in just a short time. Now, I see new brass selling for over $1,000 and lots more. Somebody is buying these, but not anyone I know. Yes, I still own an old FED HOn3 4-4-0 which is in the box, much as I imagine lots of collectible locos are right now. To those of you who have painted and are running their brass, I realize that you are modelers. Those who view brass as an investment need to start buying ocean front property in Phoenix. And yes, as the price of plastic and die cast locos go over $500 and that Athearn SW1500 which used to sell for $14.95 and now is $179.95, I can see that the future generation will keep playing video games and take up Frisbee golf rather than build train layouts. Now what?
Woodie