Should freight car preorder announcements include build/shop dates

Should N scale freight car manufacturers to include build and, if applicable, shop dates in product announcements and advertisements? I mean, specifically, the dates printed on the car (not just the era, such as "late Sixties").

Here's my argument in support of this. I suspect I'm not alone in wishing to run prototypical freight consists -- which means, at the minimum, that I don't include cars build or shopped after my layout's target date (1965).

In most cases, however, product announcements and ads do not include the build and/or shop dates; the accompanying photos are only rarely sharp enough to enable these to be read.

Just why this is so puzzles me. Perhaps the dates aren't given out of fear that doing so would diminish sales. Yet the opposite may be true. I often refrain from pre-ordering cars that look like they might be appropriate for my layout's time frame, out of fear that I'm mistaken and will find myself stuck with unwanted rolling stock. But by the time I locate and read the relevant reference material, the product is sold out. The situation is all the more frustrating given that the manufacturer possesses the needed information, but doesn't disclose it.

I am of course aware that many (if not most) N scale modelers are not so picky about build and shop dates. But I suspect that there's a sizable and growing minority that would appreciate this information. Unless I am mistaken, there is a noticeable movement toward fine scale modeling in N scale, a movement that has been enabled by the impressive improvements in overall quality in recent years. I believe that including build and shop dates in product announcements would facilitate this trend without diminishing sales to those who aren't so concerned with such matters. I could be wrong, of course, but I believe that providing this information would benefit N scale as a whole without injuring manufacturers.

What do you think? Have you purchased freight cars that turned out to be postdated, and had to get rid of them? Have you refrained from preordering because the time frame wasn't disclosed? If you aren't concerned about the exact build or shop dates, would providing this information deter you from preordering?

--Bryan Pfaffenberger
Charlottesville, VA

 

I support the motion. More information would always benefit the consumer. Those who care will get what they want, and those who don't will just ignore it.

Some manufacturers have done a good job giving us prototype info, notably BLMA. Micro-trains has often had information on the back of the box, but it's not necessarily easy to get before you order.

I'm fine if they put the information somewhere on their website or blog.

 

Bryan, I agree with your position. I have tried to buy cars that were built prior to 1950, preferably owned by roads east of the Mississippi. I have had to guess at the build dates by looking for specific characteristics representing cars of that era before ordering. Unfortunately, that technique has me owning many cars that now are either shelf queens or buried in yards where they can be ignored. In the past I have been able to sell many misifts at local shows, but there doesn't seem to be any interest in national or regional shows coming to our area since Hurricane Katrina.

 

Using shop dates to build a roster is a slippery slope.

First, shop dates are only good for 4 years (or less on some car types). Where this becomes a problem is with paint schemes. For example, if you have a car with a NEW date of 1949, there is little chance that the paint scheme is still correct for your 60's era.

Second, just because a shop date is after your era, doesn't mean a car isn't correct for your era. Many shop date changes only involved reweighing. All that may be needed is a decal to backdate it.

Knowing the BLT date is most important. After that, unless the car comes with a shop date within 4 years of your modeling era, you're going to have to research it for yourself.


Jason

 

Absolutely, I'd like to know BLT and shop dates. I've always been puzzled why more manufacturers don't provide the info.

Jim

 

ioWell Geeeeeeee whillikers! Worried about printed SHOP DATES???!?
I started looking at the shop date printed on car sides back in the 1970s to see if they were era-appropriate. I quickly discovered that dates printed in the tiny print on car sides is often inaccurate and undependable.

I guess I am first concerned, did the car EXIST at the time period I am modeling? For me, that involves knowing the history of car construction more than a date printed on a car. Is a box car a USRA design originated in 1919? Is it an ARA design of the early 1920s? A 1932 ARA Standard 40' box? A late 1930s USRA steel-side rebuilt? A 1937 AAR Standard boxcar? A late 40s 40-foot PS-1?

Before I worry about the almost invisible "shop date," I would want to know about the number series on the reporting mark? Did the railroad I want to model have cars in that number series at the date I want to recreate? I use an April 1954 Official Railway Equipment Register to check that for my middle-1950s railroad, and for my Santa Fe prototype, I use Listing of Freight Cars by Class and Car Number 1906-1991, compiled by Larry Occhiello. Published by Santa Fe Modelers Organization, Inc., Norman, Ok. and Santa Fe Railway Historical Society Inc., Long Beach, Cal.

When I buy a freight car, I want to know when the type was first made. But different car numbers on a railroad may represent cars bought in separate orders, a few years later than the earlier cars. Do we expect a manufacturer's preorder announcement to carry the separate build date for each car numbers they plan to offer? That is what it would take for real accuracy.
I think mftrs should tell us when the design was introduced, and if paint schemes change somewhat, the year the paint scheme was done.

Extreme example: This is an Arnold Rapido boxcar manufactured in the early 1970s with the big 8-foot tall Santa Fe herald applied starting about 1960..and a translucent plasticky red color that doesn't look much like no time no how.

Had this car 40 years without running it. SOMEDAY I'll have to repaint it before using it on my 1957 railroad.

I figure if I worry about the unreadably small shop dates, I'll redecal them...
Just my personal druthers.

I guess what Bryan really wants to know is, at what time did this car look EXACTLY like the model in all its markings and details.

 

Well, I think the concept of dates (built, shop, whatever) being provided is definitely a slippery slope.

On one hand I'm lazy and/or time is at a premium when an item is announced and I don't have time to research. So bring it on. This was more of an issue back when I "bought first and asked questions later" but now I'm much less inclined to be trigger happy and if/when the research gets done I can USUALLY find the item to purchase. I guess it depends on what it is, too. I get more interested in "different" or something that significantly upgrades what I currently have versus blah/wrong tooling, poor decoration, or another MDC-esque boxcar. But I do actually ENJOY doing the research, plus interacting with others doing the same/similar research. So having it handed on a platter is very much "spoiler alert" for me in some respects.

On the other hand, I worry that manufacturers hurt themselves by doing this. Some look at it as "those that care can have it right and those that don't...don't care". But, when it comes down to it a lot of the folks that say they "don't care" will still look at a date and decide NOT to buy....despite the fact that 90% of the rest of their stuff is spread across 70 years of history. (i.e. ignorance is bliss, what you don't know won't hurt you, etc.)

I like the idea of something like the "post-release" UMTRR being done for other manufacturers outside of Micro-Trains. Atlas was kinda/sorta doing this back a few years ago but apparently either interest wasn't there or it was too much of a burden on their staff. This way there is a *some* lag time so sales aren't affected terribly yet the info gets out there. The author could emulate the UMTRR plus throw out some info on uses as a "stand-in" for close prototypes, semi-foobies, etc. In this case, those that don't care probably aren't gonna bother reading/researching, a small but significant difference from having that information FRONT-AND-CENTER in the product release PDF, in my mind.

But bottom line is...we need to hold manufacturers somewhat accountable for making a good effort to produce a good product that is as correct as it can reasonably be for the price. So transparency does need to be part of the process.

 

Jason,

This doesn't square with my analysis of mid-1960s D&RGW consists. Numerous 40' box cars could be seen with late 40s and 50s paint schemes. If the BLT date is 1949 and there's no shop date, or a shop date prior to 1965, I believe it's likely that the paint scheme WILL be correct. This is supportable with the available photographic evidence (at least for the D&RGW).

True. I wouldn't rule out a car with a post-1965 shop date, but I'd have to do the research to determine whether the trip to the shop resulted in a new (post-1965) paint scheme.

Yes.

You're correct in principle, but I've found that very few N scale freight cars have a shop date. The reason, I suspect, is that manufacturers consult the builder's photos... there's no shop date, because the car was new. So long as the BLT date is 1965 or earlier, I can run a (weathered) car with its original paint scheme with a good degree of confidence that such a scheme might actually have been seen in 1965, given the roads' reluctance to repaint.

If a model has a post-1965 shop date, though, I think the chances are pretty good that the trip to the shop involved a new paint scheme. Why would the model manufacturer make a model of the car otherwise? Take a look at Micro-Trains' 40' box cars, for example. In every case that I've researched, if the model has a shop date, it's a repaint.

So, again, my point is this: I believe that were manufacturers to divulge the built date (and shop date, if present), I could at least avoid the preponderance of purchasing errors.If the BLT date is prior to 1965, and there's no shop date, I can run the car -- with weathering -- with some confidence. If the shop date is post-1965, I think -- given the realities of model marketing -- there's a pretty good chance that I'm looking at a post-1965 paint scheme, and I'd need to double-check before ordering. Ultimately, you can't be certain without doing the research, but were manufacturers to divulge this information, i'm confident that I could avoid most of my purchasing errors.

Thanks to Jason and all contributors -- let's have some more.

--Bryan






Jason[/QUOTE]

 

Maybe the answer is to leave the shop date off all together, that way those who care can add it. A fleet of identical cars would all have different shop dates anyway, unless you had photos of each car on the date you are modelling you couldn't get it accurate. On modern era cars the shop date and more is contained on the consolidated stencil, are we going to press for manufacturers to get that correct on every car.

 

GOD BLESS you guys that can even read!! those dates in "N" scale. At my age, with my eyes, can't see em', so it don't matter :wink:

 

Yes. But not just N scale.

 

I have seen atlas put build/ shop dates in their announcements from time to time. Micro-trains gives a date range in their announcements. And I'm all for it. Trying to model a prototypical looking train is hard.

 

A resounding "YES"... Its a real PITA to remove the dates and replace them with other dates to fit a particular era you're trying to represent. Obviously... it can be ignored in the "3 foot rule" world... since they are barely visible. HOWEVER... in our photographic "3 INCH rule" world the wrong car build/shop dates would warp the scene out of reality. Its not a big deal either way... but... I'd rather they dates were at least advertised.

 

Whether it be a car or a diesel loco the build date is important to me since I'm trying my best to stay withing a timeline. So that information whether in the release literature, or simply on the label at the end of the box is of importance to me. As far as paint scheme and lettering I have an extensive library of books filled with photos of cars in the 1920-30 lettering and paint still running in the 1950s. And there are an untold number of photos of cars at the end of thier useful life still in the faded paint, with the lettering barely visable out there so a car that is 30 years old can still fit in my era.