Dismantle the G&D?

John Bartolotto Oct 10, 2012

  1. John Bartolotto

    John Bartolotto TrainBoard Supporter

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    Have y'all seen this? http://ganddinz.blogspot.com/ I hope David does not dismantle the G&D. I personally think a collector out there would purchase it.

    John
     
  2. David K. Smith

    David K. Smith TrainBoard Supporter

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    I would not sell a layout that wasn't fully functional, and those switches had become a small nightmare to keep working. Anyway, it's all over. The G&D is gone. Now I have room for other projects!
     
  3. John Bartolotto

    John Bartolotto TrainBoard Supporter

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    David,

    To bad. What a fantastic layout it was! Thanks for building it, and blogging your progress, I learned a lot from reading about it. I will always remember it as one of the great Z scale layouts! Too bad about the Rokuhan switches.

    Yours,

    John
     
  4. railtwister

    railtwister TrainBoard Member

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    Hi David,

    It sounds as if this was mostly a reaction to your disappointment in Rokuhan more than anything else, which is a shame. Do you think it would have been any better if you would have used MTL track instead? This means that with future MTL track production in limbo, the grotesque and foolishly overpriced Marklin products are about all that's left. Whatever happened to Peco, I thought they were working on N scale switches?

    Bill in FtL
     
  5. David K. Smith

    David K. Smith TrainBoard Supporter

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    The "Rokuhan effect" was a strong factor in my decision, yes, but it was not the only one. I could not have built it with MTL track--I attempted it, but the limited assortment available made it impractical. Flex would not have helped, since the switches were key. If I had to do it over, I'd handlay the track. But I would not build it again; this was a one-time only project. If the switches had remained functional, it would likely be the property of someone else by now. But as I said, I could not in good conscience sell it otherwise.

    As I've said many times, building a layout is a journey, not a destination. Once built, it no longer holds much interest for me. Because it was finished, the destruction of the James River Branch was a little easier to take; my only regret with that layout was not having the opportunity to photograph it myself. With the exception of switch reliability, the G&D met all of my expectations. Now it's time for me to move on.
     
  6. railtwister

    railtwister TrainBoard Member

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    Hi David,
    Since you have first-hand experience with Rokuhan track (I've never seen any), what are the differences between it and the MicroTrains track? In photos, they look very similar, if not the same. How much of a problem is it to combine the two brands on a layout? Do you think you would have had similar problems in the long term with the MTL turnouts, if you had been able to use them? I see that Walthers lists almost all of the MTL track as "in stock", which I find surprising, since I heard the Z track was one of the things that MTL was having made by Sanda Kan, when SK sent out termination notices to so many model train companies in the USA. The word I heard was that once on-hand inventories ran out, it would be unavailable until a new production facility was found. Did MTL already find an alternate factory to continue production of the Z scale track? I've been holding off doing anything with my Z scale stuff until track availability was more secure.

    Bill in FtL
     
  7. David K. Smith

    David K. Smith TrainBoard Supporter

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    MTL and Rokuhan track are quite different. Rokuhan roadbed is about .030 inches higher (sounds small until you put the track together), and the joiners are incompatible. You can force them together by removing the MTL plastic joiners and using Rokuhan joiners instead, but you would still have to shim up the MTL track. Then there is the matter of tie spacing: they are very different, since Rokuhan is based on Japanese proto, and MTL North American proto. On their own, each looks OK, but side-by-side they look awkward at best. Besides, I see no advantage in mixing the two track brands. As for the MTL switch reliability issue, that is hard to say. However, I could not have built the layout using MTL remote-control switches because the switch motors are so big and bulky; I'd either have to relocate them, or use something else. Not to mention they only have one switch size, and that was a deal-buster for the G&D. All Rokuhan switches are inherently remote-control, with the machine entirely enclosed in the roadbed. Clever and versatile, to be sure, but highly susceptible to contaminants.

    MTL has secured a new Chinese manufacturer for their track, so all production is back up to speed. There should be no shortages of stock anywhere.

    You can learn more about Rokuhan track here: http://1-220.blogspot.com/2012_01_01_archive.html
     
  8. ztrack

    ztrack TrainBoard Supporter Advertiser

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    I am very sorry to hear the G&D is gone. First the James River and now the G&D. Two big losses in my opinion.

    Rob
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2012
  9. Mike Skibbe

    Mike Skibbe TrainBoard Member

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    Well, that's one way to cut off your nose to spite your face. :sad:
     
  10. Curn

    Curn TrainBoard Member

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    David,

    Sorry to hear that you are having so much trouble with the Rokuhan turnouts. Based on your G&D blog, the BAZ Boyz yard module, and the variety of track parts, I decided to use Rokuhan track for my next layout. I knew in advance that you had problems with glue seeping into the turnout mechanism, and knew they would require extra care. My new layout is based heavily off your Grey River & Northern track plan, however I managed to use a 220mm minimum radius on all mainline track.

    Could you comment a little more on what recent issues you experienced with the turnouts? Were the issues caused only by ballast or scenery getting into the turnout mechanism, or were their other problems? When a turnout had problems, would it bind and prevent automatic operation, or would it prevent manual and automatic operation? Power routing failure? Etc?

    I will be ballasting 10 Rokuhan turnouts in the near future, and would appreciate any advice you could provide that would help me avoid problems. You almost have me thinking that I should hand paint the turnouts, seal the side openings (manual lever and wire feed) and only ballast the sides using a conservative application of glue. I could eat the cost and use different track, however I think it would be more interesting to see if I can make it work with a different approach. This is what I'm working on.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. David K. Smith

    David K. Smith TrainBoard Supporter

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    I have no idea what you mean by this. It is my property to do with as I see fit; it does not belong to anyone else, and I have no one to which I must answer as to its fate. Spite implies I might regret what I'd done, or did it against my better judgment, neither of which is true. Do you regard M.C. Fujiwara with the same contempt for destroying his Mt. Coffin & Columbia River?

    The switches still worked manually, and it appeared power routing still functioned. They simply would not respond to an electric pulse--even when I installed a capacitor discharge circuit to give it an extra kick. And it wasn't an electrical fault--they would make a snapping sound when electrically operated; they just wouldn't move. After replacing all internal parts and thoroughly cleaning the interior of the main shell, they functioned again, but only for a while, and therein lies the biggest puzzle, since supposedly all contaminants were removed. I even tried various lubricants, polishing the moving parts, all kinds of tricks--nothing would coax them back to life.

    My recommendation is to be even more conservative than you suggested. I would use a method devised by John Sing to ballast Unitrack switches: make up a paste with ballast and undiluted white glue--ballast "paint", if you will--and carefully apply it along the sides only. As for the rest of the switch, I would stick with paint. You may want to try this on one or two switches first and see how they work over the course of a couple of months before proceeding with the rest of the layout.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2012
  12. Loren

    Loren TrainBoard Supporter

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    Not sure I understand what you mean by that statement?
     
  13. Curn

    Curn TrainBoard Member

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  14. Mike Skibbe

    Mike Skibbe TrainBoard Member

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    Oh, it's certainly your layout to do what you want. But you said a portion of the decision was a tiff with Rokuhan. Seems like destroying a complete layout because you're mad at a company would be cutting off your nose to spite your face. You mention MC. I'll throw in Chris333 as well. Chris has had problems with track and destroyed layouts I've admired also. But he's pumping out layouts, and most are simply at the track stage when he does it. And he's not feuding with track companies. Spite doesn't mean regret, it means "getting back at".

    Maybe I'm overreacting to your recent trials, but reading your blog one gets the impression that the G&D might have been the last layout your hands were able to create with such intricate work. I understand some people don't care about their legacy, but a surviving example of your art would have been a nice legacy to leave. And as you said, trains could still run and switches could be thrown by hand, so it wasn't even relagated to being a static diorama. And even if it was static, it's still a piece of art.

    So no, you don't have to answer to me. I have no say in what you do with your property. And I won't bother you by commenting on your blog. But I'm sad to see another example of model railroad art get relegated to the dumpster. Model railroad art is the most fleeting kind of art.
     
  15. David K. Smith

    David K. Smith TrainBoard Supporter

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    Had my "tiff" with Rokuhan been a more significant part of my decision, then I'd be tempted to agree with you. But it was only one of many factors; I suppose not getting into a whole laundry list of reasons, and leaving that one on the blog, was misleading. I'll have to rework that part a bit.

    You are right in that the G&D may not be bested. Or perhaps it will; I've not stopped modeling--I'm changing the way I do it (for one, I'm switching back to N). And one of the many reasons for ditching the G&D is that it's a painful reminder of some things I can't do any more. I hope you don't reach a point in your life where that becomes an issue for you; in the meantime, it's something I don't think you could understand. It comes with being an overly-sensitive, temperamental artist. I rarely keep the things I make. Here's another thought-grenade: had the James River Branch not been destroyed by UPS, it would eventually suffered the same fate by my own hand.

    What puzzles me, though, is your concern about the fate of model railroad "art." While it's a flattering reference, thank you, to whom would I leave such a legacy? I have no heirs, and when leaving it to a stranger, there's always the risk that it may be someone who will never share it (this has happened), in which case, to the rest of the world it may as well not exist. It's nice to see people who value such things, but you're sadly in a virtually non-existent minority, and you valued the G&D far more than I had.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2012
  16. ztrack

    ztrack TrainBoard Supporter Advertiser

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    This is a very interesting philosophical issue and one I have been following for years. What is art to one man has no value to another. Many Z scalers were quite frustrated by the loss of Jim O'Connell's four layouts. For Jim, it was the creation that was the hobby, not the end result. Each time, I begged Jim to consider selling the layout and starting over. But the result was always the same. Is it right or is it wrong? That can be debated for years.

    I have no doubt that David could have sold each layout. The G&D would have found a home and it would have been appreciated if not adorned by the new owner. Many in Z scale do not have the talent or desire to create what David created. I know many how would jump at the chance to have such a highly detailed layout ready to run for them. Just look at the dioramas and layouts John Cubbin sells. There is a market for high quality pieces.

    Is it art? Well this is a topic I know well and debate frequently. I have degree in fine arts (speciality watercolor with a minor in oils and acrylics) and I personally see layouts as works of art. I think too many do not see the value in their work. But it is a created piece the evokes emotions, being it happiness or frustrations. I do agree with Mike that I think we are loosing the sense of 'art' and many are not trying to develop the skills necessary to 'create' masterpieces of rail and scenery. In an upcoming Trackside Perspective, I will be challenging the readers of Ztrack to develop new skills over this winter.

    But at the end of the day, it is the owners discretion on what happens to his layout. I am very sad and disappointed to see the fate of these two layouts. They showed the level or detail the can be achieved in Z. For me, this is what we need to promote and showcase the scale. I am honored that I got to see both in Denver. I only wish I had more time to explore the layouts. I just assumed we would have them for years to come.

    My only advise to others is don't discount what you have created. Be proud of it. Share your work and let other enjoy and learn from what you have achieved.

    Rob
     
  17. Jeff Powell

    Jeff Powell TrainBoard Member

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    Surely a railroad museum or such would have loved to have it. They are so many out there and some getting a new life. Z scale WAY too small for me, in fact anything smaller than HO is too small..lol Looked like both were great layouts. To most modelers having spent so much time on a layout, however the size, simply to destroy ones work just doesn't seem right, yes it is yours.....but I would rather give or sell it to somebody who could make it live on.
     
  18. David K. Smith

    David K. Smith TrainBoard Supporter

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    Honestly, I'd have to sell it at a fraction of its value in order to secure a buyer. The James River branch had $16,000 in materials alone. What would five years of my spare time be worth? How many years would it take to find someone to pony up the $10,000 I'd considered a minimum price for the G&D? Yes, there is a market for high-quality items; Cubbin moves dioramas because they are significantly smaller-ticket items that have very little if any operational or maintenance overhead.

    Therein lies an issue. Without meaning to be disrespectful to anyone, the problem is there are very few people who would know what to do with it, aside from put it on static display. These things require maintenance, even if they're not run, and considerably more care and knowledge if they are. Far too often I've seen similar artifacts fall into a sad state of disrepair over time, to the point of being an embarrassment to the original builder. That is not a fate I would choose for anything that might be regarded as valuable.
     
  19. Alaska Railroader

    Alaska Railroader TrainBoard Supporter

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    I also remember being frustrated that Jim destroyed each beautiful layout. For him it was also the journey and not necessarily the destination and, like David, it got in the way of the next piece of art.

    David was correct that if it sold to a private individual the world would not enjoy it to the degree that is being implied that it might. I sold a layout for a very nice sum of money to an individual who keeps it in her penthouse home. I'm sure she shares it with her guests but it has not been left as a legacy of mine except perhaps by the write up in ztrack.

    As for donating to a museum, don't we all agree that few outsiders value Z scale for what it is truly worth? I have heard that the Smithsonian has more in storage than they display. Would a railroad museum put a small layout in a prominent place for viewing? Once donated you have lost control of placement. It could end up sold at a fundraising event.

    David carefully salvaged the structures and anything useful, its not like he took a sledge hammer to the whole layout in anger. The James River Branch being destroyed was not his doing. Let it go people, I'm going to miss the G&D as much as anyone.
     
  20. Jeff Powell

    Jeff Powell TrainBoard Member

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    Well let me say this....Although I model HO....IF any of you get that fuzzy feeling of wanting to "dismantle" a small layout like that...give me a shout...I WILL make it live on. And if you decide you have regrets and would like it back..no problem.
     

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