Hill/mountain contour material Query

I am so tired of looking at my open grid, unsceniced layout and realise that to amend this I must start by installing contour pieces..I don't think I will use much, if any, foam style ..I think I'll attempt the kind described in an artical in a very recent MRer; using cloth towel covered with a calking type substance (I look again. I can't recall right now. At library) draped over contour shapes. He describes it as a clean ,dust free, near zero cleanup, easy job. I have alot of half inch 5 ply left over . Can I assume that this is good for installing contours along the layout for the cloth to stretch across (or possibly screen and plaster type)? I'd think the half inch width would be handy to staple into..I have a jig saw and will quesstimate shapes and figure ways to attach them to the frame work at maybe 1 foot intervals...

 

The caulk over towels is a really bad idea. Unless you're anal about making a mess, and every time I use caulk for something, it's always messy.

I know you have this aversion to Styrofoam (extruded polystyrene sheets) since you think it's too modern (even though it was invented by Dow in 1941), here's a more modern method, but which will appeal to your sense of using traditional materials.

Whatcha do is buy some cheesecloth, which is pretty cheap (way cheaper than towels), and some cheap plaster. You don't need Hydrocal or any other fancy plaster for this...a bag of patching plaster will work great. Then you buy a cheap, plastic drop cloth...thin is good. Next you buy a flour sifter if you already don't have one (probably getting one that's dedicated to making scenery base would be a good idea). Then, you locate or buy some cheap paint brushes...like you can get at Harbor Freight tools. Lastly, you need some yellow carpenter's glue, and a roll or two of cheap, sticky 1" masking tape.

Although I know your layout construction is probably different than mine, I usually cut my front fascia (laminated 1/8" tempered Masonite) to its scenery profile before there's any scenery. Since I build prototype areas, I've got a pretty good idea of what the land contours are, so I seldom make a mistake. I also build modules, so the module ends also have a profile to them. Near my skyboards, I'll run a 1X2 with supports every couple of feet, and to this, I'll attach a rear scenery profile made from thick cardboard or 1/2" Styrofoam.

After all my profiles are cut and firmly in place, I take my cheesecloth and glue the edges of it to the landscape profiles with the yellow carpenter's glue, and let it dry...with the cheesecloth draping towards the inside of my benchwork, the edges (front, back, sides) all overlapping so that when it's folded to the inside of the layout edges it overlaps everywhere by almost a foot. You want the cheesecloth to be floppy...never tight anywhere and only glue one side at corners, letting the pieces overlap at the corners. The rule for me with my modules is: "One strip each for the ends, one strip for the back, and one strip for the front, all overlapping in the middle, each strip having only one glued edge, which will be the outside edges of the module."

While the yellow carpenter's glue is drying, take a part of your cheap plastic dropcloth and cover up anything under the layout you don't want to get wet, or have plaster (both dry and wet) fall on.

After the yellow glue is dry and the cheesecloth is firmly attached to the upper edges of the landscape contours all around, I take plastic grocery bags and fill them full of wadded up newspapers, and I build a rough "look" to them, the top surfaces representing where the plastic drop cloth and lastly the cheesecloth will lay on. You can support the bags from underneath by building a masking tape "net" underneath, setting the newpaper-filled bags on top of it. I've even used stools with a piece of Styrofoam on top to add support for the stuffed grocery bags. Make do with what you've got.

After I'm pretty satisfied with the "look" of the grocery bags full-o-newspapers, I lay the thin, plastic drop cloth over them, then fold the glued-on cheesecloth over the tops of the bags...and take another look-see. Hmmm...does that look right? Nope...raise the bags up there...put a new bag there...etc., etc.

After you're happy with the way your basic scenery topography looks, you make sure that there are no places where the bags are not covered with cheesecloth. If there are spots, just cut some cheesecloth and lay that over any holes.

Now, you spray the cheesecloth with water from an old 409 (or equivalent) spray dispenser...say about a two foot by two foot area, then you put your patching plaster in your flour sifter and start sifting on the dry flour...then spray it with mo' water.

After you've got a bit of wet plaster sticking to your wet cheesecloth, you want to brush the surface gently at first to spread the plaster over the little holes between cheesecloth fibers. Brush, wet, sift plaster, spray, brush...sift plaster. It goes pretty quick, and the plaster sets up pretty quick too. If you want it to set up quicker, add a little salt to your water and let it dissolve. If you want it set up slower, add a little vinegar.

It doesn't take long before you've got a self-supporting hard shell. Let's say you don't like the way a certain area looks. You just take a box knife and cut it out, make the contour the way you want it, cover the hole with extra cheesecloth spray it with water and do the plaster sifting thing again. It will stick to the old hardshell as long as you wet the old hardshell.

After you've got everything the contour you like, you can remove the masking tape netting and the paper stuffed grocery bags and use them in another place on your layout.

Add one or two more layers of plaster to your shell for added strength.

One trick I use is to color the second and/or third layer with dry tempera paints, mixing brown and black in my dry plaster, and sometimes, fine dry dirt from the area I'm modeling for a little color and texture. Experiment with the amounts until you get what you like.

On top of this shell you can put carved or cast rocks and ground cover of all kinds. If you need to add a branchline or a highway, just lay it out, and make cuts and fills by cutting them out and laying more cheesecloth over paper stuffed grocery bags. It's very versatile and easy to work with, as well as lightweight and strong.

I wouldn't even consider the towel-caulk thing...a bad idea in my book.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

 

Very nice explanation..I see, the plastic bag prevents the wadded paper inside it from sticking to cheescloth so is merely to get basic shape..And laying the cheescloth not taught allows bag underneath to lift cloth to be convex for sifting on plaster later.. Had no idea we can add color and even fine dirt to plaster without chemically disturbing drying process..But you do use foam for profiles. I'll assume it's OK to use 1/2 inch plywood and do same..I have enough left over from building this HO 3.5 Mi ficticious branch..Altogether it's not that much open space to fill...I have a number of very low, like 2-6 inch high hills between two tracks at different altitudes that taped on newspaper wads stuffed in and plastered right onto will probably suffice ..Other taller/wider open areas would more greatly justify your technique. Thanks for warning about caulking style, too.
Mark Harris

 

Mark, plaster doesn't really "dry"...it "cures", and adding dirt and dry tempera colors doesn't affect it much. I like to tint the plaster so if I chip it, it doesn't show up as a white spot since my modular layout is portable, and inevitably sustains a bit of damage every time I put it in the trailer.

Yup...half inch plywood would work great.

Here's a more graphic explanation along with photos that my friend Kelly Newton made for Lee Nicholas' Utah Colorado Western website. Kelly does things a bit differently than I do, but it's basically the same thing, so take a look-see here for a better visualization of the technique. http://www.ucwrr.com/

Hope this helps

 

Bob, I checked your's and Lee's posts/pics/directions...Very very lovely stuff indeed ! My road is a point to point (no likey roundy-rounds) 3.5 Mi standard-gauge switchback branch imagined to be in kentucky/Virginia/...Chose a switchback to gain some challenges getting from one end to the other..The tail of the SB, midway is now doubled to act as a runaround to put loco at different end of cars depending on duties down hill to one end or uphill to other end. plus there are facing and trailing point spurs reguiring runaround, too. Lowest west end of line is a live interchange with 'parent' RR .I wish I had room to have a RR without a SB..I could redo whole thing and make it a shear,level, urban switching layout. But I vied for a couple tunnels and hills where the cheesecloth will be needed. just bought a $.99 roll of 3'x15' light brown postal wrapping paper today to possibly crumple up to mock rockie hills/tunnels..tired of the newspaper dance...
Thanks for excellent tips and all,
Mark

 

I have been building stuff for as far back as I can remember....Lincon Logs pop into what is left of my mind. My last "professional" new stuff was the 787.
I hit most of the points in between the two......trains, boats, planes, buildings, cars..... Then came Model RRs about a year ago. I can't think of any of these that didn't make a mess.....when I read that building stuff without a mess is possible, I call bul......well, the author didn't walk in my shoes.

After some experimentation, my RR is mostly foam. The construction caused messes ranging from a normal mess to gawd awful, but I am a firm believer in foam.
Here's a link to the construction: http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=12776

 

Foam + hot wire = about the least mess possible. All you need is fresh air to get rid of the fumes, which aren't bad anyway.

 

My latest foam tool is a Weller solder gun with an electrode shaped from solid 14 gauge Romex....stripped bare, of course. Shape the cutter to suit. It cuts much faster than a "hot wire " cutter sold by various outfits. Still makes a mess....but not "gawd awful". Very handy for cutting creek beds in pre-existing foam.

 

Is foam and hotwire really less messy than cardboard and scissors? And, if the fumes "aren't bad", you would not "need fresh air to get rid of the fumes".

I am not anti- foam, by the way. I am however anti-faulty logic, and the reasons you espoused for foam being better than all other layout contour construction methods are definitely faulty.

 

Cardboard and scissors is definitely not messy. However, the cardboard and scissors method does not produce a scenery surface that is ready to finish; you'll need something to lay over it, such as plaster cloth or hardshell, and those are pretty messy. With careful carving of extruded foam, you can go straight to scenery finishing: paint, ground cover, trees, etc. You can even carve pretty decent rock surfaces with a hot wire and/or hot knife.

As for the fumes, YMMV. Some people are bothered by them, so a small fan blowing nearby and/or an open window will definitely help. I do not find the fumes to be objectionable.

In my opinion, foam is superior to all other methods I have tried, which include plywood forms with screenwire, cardboard strips, plaster bandage, papier-mâché, hardshell, and a host of others (even kitty litter!). Nowadays I just stack a few layers of foam, pin them together with bamboo skewers, and have at them with a hot wire; the scenery contours can be finished in minutes, with no sawdust, foamdust, plaster dust, etc. Not that speed is critical, but it's certainly satisfying to have things done without having to wait for glue or other stuff to dry. Plus, I find I have a much higher degree of control over the final form when carving foam than attempting to shape cardboard strips or other flexible material. Changes are easy, and I can carve the roadbed right into the foam and start laying track; I use double-sided foam tape instead of cork, so the track goes down in minutes, too.

You may choose to find fault with my logic; that is your prerogative. However, after five decades of layout-building and scenery-making, I have found nothing better. Given that different people will have different preferences, it's obviously not the perfect solution for everyone.

 

I find no fault with Mr. Smith's logic.
I haven't got his MRR experience but I recognize a good thing when I see it.

I'm about done making land forms. Now, the real work starts......detailing. I've done a short train's worth to get a taste of it........this could take some time.......

BTW, all those small trees are mobile.......stuck into foam. The big un's (up to 24 inches) are also.....only a couple hundred big un's left to build.....but not from foam.

 

I agree that if you want to decorate directly on the carved foam that it would be a less messy method to get contours than cardboard strips with paper mache' or plaster topping, but the reality is that most people put plaster over the foam anyways.

"All you need is fresh air to get rid of the fumes, which aren't bad anyway." is without a doubt faulty logic. Here is another example using the exact same logic. Let me know if this example makes it easier to spot the faulty logic.

"All you need is a bullet proof vest to stop .45 bullets, which aren't bad anyway".

 

Fine, fine, fine.

Next time I carve foam, I'll put on my bulletproof vest.

 

My comment was not about the issue of whether or not foam fumes are bad for you, although most people would agree that they are. It was about whether your statement made sense, which it did not. My dad is building his new layout using all foam and he loves it for the most part. The main reason I won't be using much foam , if any, is cost. I can make my hills with cardboard structure for zero dollars, or spend ~$100 for foam. Easy choice for me, but other folks might prefer to spend that just for the convenience.

 

Though I've done about 1 Sq ft of plaster on screening about 6 mos ago I stopped because my landlord was insinuating going out of rental market (Ellis act) and was thus going to take over entire duplex for his family.. From his actions of late, I think he's not going to do this. So I've restarted my work on RR..
The real reason I'm not that fond of foam is more due to the simple idea that there is all this plastic present..not toxicitywise, but more just a vibe about it..It goes back to first years restaurants (like Carrows ) were putting fake beams in their ceilings..It's just a feeling I get that I don't care for..Same thing with 'virtual' model railroading..the idea of getting one's jollies running computer images with simulations of trains, is too 'plastic' for me...I agree foam comes out nice and it's easy to work with for trees and drainage ditches..But, archaic as it is, screen and plaster give me a feeling of rock presence more than the other..Even plastic steam loco shells (which I have 3 of) kind of bugs me a tad..It's just a feeling. So much plastics now .."Benjamin, I have just one word for you...plastics." Know what film that's from ?

 

For small landforms you can use foam-in-a-can, as I did here.



It's not the most economical way, and you'd need a healthy budget if you had yards and yards of landforms to do, but it does work well. It's lightweight and tough, and it requires minimal effort [that's the part I like!] It takes paint well too.
When cut it reveals a honeycomb structure that you'll have to cover with clay or plaster or putty or cloth or something of your choice. I used clay on mine. I like the sculptural aspect of doing things that way.



Mike

 

When I wrote Mark about the cheesecloth/plaster method, it was specifically because I knew Mark has an aversion to extruded polystyrene foam. That said, I also prefer foam for my landforms, but not as a structural element in my portable, modular layout. I've got nothing against somebody using foam for the whole shebang, but for modules that get clamped together, I prefer wood, steel or aluminum for the benchwork, along with the integral folding legs.

I've also found that foam carves pretty easily...and I mean rocks, not just the landforms. So far, I'm pretty happy with my Echo Sandstone and vertical basalt cliffs I carved out of raw Dow Styrofoam for my buddy Nate's layout. A combination of different carving/texturing tools does a quick and precise job of representing various types of rocky structures. Here's a photo of Nate's Riverside area with the stony mountains reminiscent of rock cliffs in the upper Weber Canyon on UP's mainline in Utah:


Here's a photo of my Echo Cliffs (still being carved) which is an actual place on the UP in Echo Canyon called "Echo Curve":


Just for giggles, here's a prototype view of both Echo Curve and the Echo Sandstone Cliffs:


It'd be a lot more difficult (and a lot heavier) to carve this particular style of rock in plaster. The pink foam lets me take my time and carve specific features as well as stack the hell out of it for a great track-to-scenery-ratio. I use my homemade hot-wire carver with replaceable NiChrome wire shapes to get whatever general form I want.

Foam's great! ...even though I know Mark's not gonna use it.