OK so i am ready to graduate from dc to DCC. Im trying to see what system will work as a good universal system for any size of a layout. Also I'd like to keep my blue box locos. How hard will it be to put decoders in them?
Just a few thoughts........ When starting a thread like this, it is a good idea to tell us what scale you are using. That way we can do a better job of helping you out. When it comes to an expandable system, that means you need to look for a system that supports boosters so you can increase the power as need to your layout. The next feature you should look at is how large or small your layout is and what you will typically running on it. If it is 50 locomotives at the same time, that solution would be different than 10 or less locomotives. Will you have sound or no sound? Will you control turnouts and have signaling too? As for decoders, they are getting easier and easier to install, even in older legacy locomotives.
Whew two hickups at once! I didnt even know this got posted in the new members forum. OK here goes I'm modeling in HO. I'm not worried about sound so much as I just want to run my trains. I don't think I'll ever run more than 10 locos at a time. At least not by myself anyways. I have tried to read up on DCC and find myself scratching my head and wondering what in the world? I wouldn't even know where really to begin with DCC. I want to go in that direction and retire my tech 4 260 and all of those train set power packs.
When I went DCC six years ago, I did a lot of research into the various manufacturers' products before making up my mind. My layout is modular/sectional, and will grow eventually into a square that will be 30' X 30'...and if more room is available, even bigger. This meant that I needed expandability, and a system that would be around for at least a couple of decades. I also had a large inventory of engines that weren't DCC and I didn't want them to be totally inoperable until I took the time to instill decoders in them. Several of my friend had already taken the DCC leap and I wanted them to be able to bring a throttle to my op sessions to supplement mine. I wasn't very concerned about a steep learning curve as my son and I are computer literate, and I'd already operated on several DCC layouts using a number of different systems and none of them seemed too difficult to learn. Operating with several systems also let me "feel" the throttles in my hand, and see first hand how they both felt and operated with me holding them. I also tried a non-DCC infra red wireless system in HO that one of the prominent HO scalers here in Utah uses on his layout. After six months or so of fiddling around, doing research and operating using Lenz, NCE, Rail Lynx and Digitrax systems, I settled on two systems that were pretty close in their capabilities and expandability. Those two systems were NEC and Digitrax. Three things sent me over to the Digitrax side: (1) Digitrax allows running analog engines (DC) using address 00 (NCE has no capability of running analog engines), (2) Digitrax is easily expanded and its LocoNet peer-to-peer LAN is extremely versatile and simple, (3) The vast majority of DCC users in my area were using Digitrax, so I could call and bug 'em if I ran into any problems learning the system Frankly, I didn't care about the ill-written manuals and difficult learning curve that was so prominently complained about concerning Digitrax. Since there were so many satisfied users in my area, it was an easy leap of logic to conclude that Digitrax really isn't that difficult to learn how to use, which turned out to be correct for me and my son. I also really liked it that Digitrax is made right here in the good ol' USA, and is not subject to the whims of Chinese industrial-political upheavals or changes of their import/export policies. I went with the Digitrax Super Chief Radio starter set, bought a power supply, two UT4R radio utility throttles, a dozen UP5 Loconet panels for my modules, a PM42 Quad Power Manager board and a Sountraxx PTB-100 Programming Track Booster so I could program my sound decoders. I also bought several dozen decoders to get me started converting my engines. Since then, I have started converting my system over to Duplex Radio rather than Simplex Radio, which gives me more functions and versatility both at home and at shows. I don't know if I'll ever get my layout to that 30' X 30' configuration, but it does keep growing and other model railroaders have adopted my modular standards and are buckling up with me at three shows per year as I take certain modular LDE's to them. Both the modular design and my Digitrax choice are proving to be just what I wanted and I have zero gripes about Digitrax, which enables me to run non-DCC engine lashups if I want at the same time and on the same track as my DCC engines. My friend Gregg Cudworth likes Rail Lynx, so he runs his engines on the DCC powered track with impunity having direct IR control over his engines with no interference with my DCC. He is, however, liking the sound that comes out of my engines, and is seriously considering going with Digitrax also on his home layout. A wise choice Gregg. I will say that for a smaller layout, and one that will not eventually have automation, signalling, train detection and a lot of operators with radio throttles...NCE would be a decent choice. But, for the most versatile and advanced system, Digitrax is it...even if they have bad manuals and a steep learning curve. Cheerio! Bob Gilmore
So i have found a digitrax zephyr starter set? Is it worth anything? Its not a handheld throttle but it seems like it may be a good system. Any thoughts?
Is it the Zephyr or the Zephyr Xtra, the first is ten slots for engines, the Xtra 20 slots, the first is 2.5 amps and the Xtra 3 amps; and a few other minor differences. The Zephyr system is probably the most advanced "introduction" system out there. And locoNet might not seem a big deal to you now but as you become more advanced in the hobby, what you can add on easily will be important. After you have owned the Zephyr for a while, you will want a throttle. The bad news is the DT400 series of throttles are their most expensive, but they will simplify a bit your programming and is the best throttle to get as your first versus the other throttles for Digitrax that are out there. Don't forget the used market. Sound isn't important to you now, but don't rule it out, many a MR'r has said the very same thing and got caught up in sound. The Zephyr is gentlest way into DCC, but its a full system, you can do everything with it.
I agree with Robert that Digitrax is a great sysyem. I started out with a Super Chief with Radio knowing my layout hopes were pretty big. I took my time to learn about all I could with the sysem. (programming, troubleshooting) And did all the loco's one at a time with Digitrax decoders. I stayed with their decoders becuase of the warranity, which I had to use a couple times where they sent a new decoder. After starting the new layout I was really happy that it didnt take as much wire to build. Should say it woulnt take as much, because I planned on separate blocks just in case I would want to try more later on. I ran the terminals to one location for any future upgrades. I ran the layout with just that for a couple years before I tried my first BDL168 detection board. I hooked up the first 16 detection zones real quickly since all the wiring was already there, and made the panels that had turnout switches already, and put in LEDs from the BDL168 to show occupancy. Then ran that for at least a year so I could learn how to use JMRI, to make a panel. Now there are three boards with 48 detection zones, and the JMRI panel to show occupancy, and put in LEDs in all the sub panels on the layout to show the same indications. I ran it that way for about two years to understand it and get to work everytime. Then after raeding about the SE8c I decided to get a board and give a try. Now the mainline switches had the DPDT switches removed, and push button installed.(more telephone wire bought from a phone company. The type that has about a hundred wires. Its small and easy to make my own wiring harneses).and I had to power the bottom of the tortoise machine so the switch indication lights would work on the layout panels. I made a section of the layout my test bed in case I didnt like the board and in case I got over my head. JMRI got a hookup through a PR 3 to the layout that now had my track diagram through layout editor. I found JMRIs ablity to find when something new is added a huge help (turnouts and sensors). I first got the turnouts to work on the program to reflect what was going on the layout. Then added a signal, that took me a bit to understand, but using the simple logic on JMRI made it simple. Built fourteen more heads and added them one at at time. For the signals I stayed with the mast that Digitrax makes, and cut off the head (N scale you can dress those up for ready made signals) I would suggest not tring to hook up wiring to the mast head without them untill you fully understand how they are connected. I came realy close to a board meltdown, and it affected my loconet. Came to find out somehow I didnt get the 100 ohm resistor on every head , I had two LEDs on one resistor. Once I got all the signals up and working just like the prototype, that has three occupancy sections for three indications on each signal. Then I tried search light heads which are way easier to build and hookup. Now after two years of practice I have installed a second SE8c to complete the mainline turnouts, and whole layout signaling. The possibilties are what ever you want for your layout. Price them all and look at what you may want in the future, there is a system that will fit your needs now and the future.
Well played Bob! Couldn't have said it any better... For a long time Digitrax was a very good system for me too, and I still use it for NTrack. But I ran into a few of its limitations on the retirement master layout and had to move to a different system. The accessory bus address space disappears fast and without warning when adding lots of DCC features like signalling, occupancy detection and stationary decoders. Before I went partially insane with my retirement layout I was really happy with my Super Chief system. The expandability is really great! About the only thing I would say different is to use the Digital Specialties PSX units as the circuit breakers. They are easier to wire and solid state design is better and more reliable than the mechanical relays in the PM42.
Buy a book like that DCC guide (2nd edition) that the model railroader magazine folks put out or something so you know what you are buying parts wise before you buy it and can learn the generic functions before learning the brand/model specific stuff. If you don't know what the hardware does what you can't figure out what you need or what is enough power. I would also say you are better to save up and spend a ton up front rather than piecemeal it a bit at a time as most of the pieces get set up and configured as a system and would be a bother to rewire later. I would sort of echo roberts thoughts brand wise. I went with Digitrax because I needed unlimited expandability with a very modular system and have no issue with steeper learning curves since that just means you are getting all the functionality with none of the training wheels dumped in your lap at once which is how I like it. It's actually learning the generic DCC on top of the unit specific controls that gets confusing at first. It also doesn't help that many of us are the sort to still have a VCR blinking 12:00 in our homes so any new technology is dauntingly complex. I went hog wild money wise since I have learned in my life that starter gear just gets replaced and wastes time and money. I realized that the zephyr didn't have enough power to run the number of sound equipped locos I wanted and was more of an all in one than a modular system, and the Empire builder doesn't have the decoder read function for some stupid reason. That left only the Super Chief Xtra, and since its only like $25 more to get the 8 amp version I saw no reason to bother with the 5 amp. The only drawback to that is that the short detection on the 8 amp unit was cranked way up and will potentially cook some delicate stuff in the event of an odd short. I overcame that by dividing the large amount of power the 8 amp unit has with a PM42 which has individual adjustable short detection settings for each of the 4 zones and independent automatic power reversal as well (for when track loops back on itself and the power lines reverse). An example of when you would need a ton of power is a pair of sound equipped F7's (or any loco) pulling a multi car lighted passenger train (a scenario in my future). I have heard of setups like that tripping the short detection on the PM42 at low settings when it rolls into a new area and the unit sees the sudden huge power draw. You also have to get a power supply separate with that setup and the one I picked was the digitrax PS2012 because it has dual outputs, power to spare with an amp gauge, and a thermostatically controlled cooling fan (older units were constant on fan I guess though). I didn't bother with wireless since my layout isn't thirty feet long and a long modified phone cord could reach anywhere I need (or another jack). If I decide to go wireless later one of the most awesome things about Digitrax is most of their products are updatable and upgradable and you can add wireless to the controller for like $65 or something by sending it in to them. All that said if you only ever plan to run 2 trains or so and don't need to walk around a Zepyhr could be your all in one answer (even comes with power supply). You can technically add stuff to a Zephyr later, but it becomes kinda useless once you start to add things. Also everyone gets sound added eventually, just accept that ahead of time and plan for it. Its just so damn nifty to hear the diesel engine start up and spool up as you increase throttle. If not right away at least make sure the decoders you buy have the plugin to add the sound board later. If your locos are good quality and you like them add decoders. If not just ditch em and buy DCC ready or even equipped ones. I picked up my Athearn Genesis F7 A/B set both powered with decoders already in both for $130 used off ebay and both have a plugin for a sound decoder add on later. DCC decoders are cheap but the loco really has to be worth it to do the soldering of wires install.
You are absolutely right about the sound. Bout hearing them spool up. I just thought about it and the engine noise is what got me within eyesight of the tracks to watch the long coal drag coming through. So I'll give sound a good thought. There are so many options though its crazy. I'm used to using regular power packs for DC and then throwing my signals on another and manually working them. Then again I was and have been working on the sacred sheet of 4x8 plywood. Three moves and three destroyed layouts later I'm off the plywood sheet. My wife agrees and I'm planning my next layout. With more space saved but more trackage I decided to leave DC as well. And going back to sound. Any good ideas on speakers?
What I was trying to say is pick a system you can use for years after the purchase. If you decide to go whole hog on your layout, its nice to have componets that are made for your system.
I'd love to have a system to have for years down the road. With so many to pick from its rather hard to choose. And with the options to power my signals and switches through the same system is interesting to me. Like I said I'm have been using a train set style DC power pack and manual toggle switches to do everything. Would the zephyr extra give me the flexibility i would want or would it be wise to go ahead and get the super chief instead?
I would say realistically the Zephyr will be enough for a great many N and HO scale users out there and its one of the cheapest complete DCC starter sets. If you are really into this stuff and plan to go big or with tons of features you will probably end up replacing almost everything with the first really major layout. You will never outgrow the Super Chief Xtra, only add pieces to expand it as its parts are already top of the line at the moment. With digitrax being able to update most of their products they have a lot more life in them before even possibly becoming obsolete. Keep in mind you need a power supply separate to go with that starter set and that can get expensive. There is a cheaper power supply available for the 5 amp Super chief, but for the 8 amp the PS2012 is the only Digitrax unit with enough output (aftermarket options also out there). If money is at all an issue and you want to just get the trains going on DCC I would pick up a Zephyr. If money is not an issue I still reccomend the Super Chief.
Seems legit to me. The zephyr extra will probably be my best bet for now. It'll get me started. Any recommended books to get me going with wiring?
Excellent choice. Several of my friends have gone with the Zephyr Xtra with their small layouts and are entirely happy with it, and the inevitable extra radio throttles they've added allowing the kids, grandkids and guests to operate without getting all tangled up. As to your wiring, when you get ready to wire your layout, many of us can give you good advice, including specifics the books don't give you. Here's the basics that serve me well: (1) Use high-quality wire for everything. This means both appearance and quality. I chose 12ga. high-purity, low-oxygen, fine stranded black and red zip speaker wire for my main power buses. The reason for the 12ga. is because my layout will grow into around 300 to 400 feet of mainline trackage, so I want the least resistance I can practically get. For a smaller layout, 14ga. wire of the same quality and style will work just fine...even 16ga. would be okay for a bedroom sized layout. (2) Think about doing away with terminal strips. I don't use terminal strips as my layout is modular and portable. I don't want any screws coming loose due to vibration and temperature changes when transporting modules to a show. I went with what I call "Sub-buses" that are 14ga. wires of the same quality as my main power buses, but not zip. These are never more than 3' long and are connected to my main power buses using genuine 3M Scotchlok Insulation Displacement Connectors (IDC's or "suitcase" connectors). I decided to attach a 6" 22ga solid core feeder to each and every piece of rail, not trusting jumpers or railjoiners to carry current or signals since my layout is high-resistance nickel code 55 and code 40. Each feeder (either black or red) is attached to a respective black or red sub-bus, which has been connected to its respective main power bus wire. On my layout, the nearest rails are fed by red insulated 22ga. feeder wires, and the furthest rails are fed by black insulated 22ga. feeder wires. Each power block is a different color with the nearest mainline being red, the furthest mainline being yellow and the branchline being blue. I apply colored vinyl tape to the respective main power buses and sub-buses to make it clear what power block they belong to. I also put a small square of colored vinyl tape on my benchwork close to the individual track feeders to make sure I get them in the right power block. (3) As stated above, the best way to make sure you have consistent and reliable electrical and signal feeds to your rails is to put a 6" 22ga. solid copper feeder near the center of each and every piece of rail on your layout. Bite the bullet and just do it. You won't be sorry. (4) If you have connections that will be regularly disconnected and re-connected, I've found that Ntrak's recommendation of using Anderson Power Poles as being very sound advice. (5) Consider running a "Wall Wart" to power both your UP5 panels and your switch machines (I use Northwest Shortline's Tortoises). I use clear insulated 14ga. speaker wire for this circuit which follows my main power buses around the layout. When I started out, I knew I didn't know chit about what wire to use, what connectors to use, what gauge wire to use and where, or where to solder my feeders onto my rails. I was well-versed in DC wiring and electronics, but DCC was brand new to me and slightly intimidating. I decided to turn one of my old 6' bridge modules into a DCC test module, experimenting with everything I didn't know about and make my mistakes there, rather than purchasing large quantities of electrical components and accessories only to find out they didn't suit my needs...both cosmetically and practically. This saved me a lot of money, and I highly recommend that you do the same. Here's a photo of the underside of one of my modules that's been wired with my new high-speed, low-drag DCC wiring, replacing the old rat's nest of DC wiring: Although lots of people recommend that soldered joints are the very best, I have found that I have fewer problems using genuine 3M IDC's, but they have to be GENUINE 3M and properly sized for the gauge wire you're using. However, I do solder my 12v power joints to my Tortoises, toggle switches and various other joints. I have a lot more problem with these than I do with my IDC's, but my layout is portable and spends several hours being transported to and from shows three times a year. Maybe that has something to do with it. Lastly, remember to check each and every electrical joint at the time of attachment. Never assume that it is either good, or doesn't produce a short. This will save you major headaches. Don't ask me how I know!! Good luck! Cheerio! Bob Gilmore
12 Gauge wire is way over-sized for the frequency of the DCC operation. 120 feet of NTrak modules center fed using high quality wire as Bob says, only sees 2 tenths of a voltage drop at each end as opposed to the voltage in the center when properly implemented. Signal dispersion is less than .1% 120 feet with 12 gauge sees 1.25 volts of drop and 3% signal dispersion. Measurements made using Oscilloscopes and Spectrum Analyzers. The mathematics also bear this out. The 12 gauge size is drawn from DC measurements which is about as applicable as driving a locomotive on a paved street.
I agree David. After I did a little more research after I'd already wired up my modules, it's clear that 14ga. high-quality wire is probably the ideal diameter for large layouts as voltage drop isn't the main problem but signal cancellation due to electrical harmonics is. In 14ga. wire the signal cancellation problem is actually much less than in 12ga. wire. Had I known that, I would have opted for 14ga. However, since I got a helluva good deal on a 300' spool of high-quality 12ga. speaker wire, I may not have actually saved any money by opting for 14ga. so I don't have any regrets from a monetary standpoint. Plus, I simply assumed that since Ntrak regularly sets up and runs DCC on very large setups, and that even though 12ga. is overkill, I'd go with it anyway...just to be sure. From a practical standpoint, so far, so good. No problems whatsoever on modular lashups of over 200' of mainline track...and more modules keep getting built. Cheerio! Bob Gilmore
Hi Bob, As long as you set up shorter than 80 foot power districts with 12 gauge you are probably in good shape. Just don't let the length of a bus get too long and you will be ok. Due to the complex nature of the composite DCC signal, the larger the gauge the higher the reactance will be. The harmonics start to really add up after that which increase the reactance and cause the signal to start falling apart or disperse. And to be perfectly clear, the voltage drop is slightly more with the larger gauges of wire, but after about 100 feet, the harmonically induced dispersion is causing more problems with the signal degradation. The messages packets start getting messed up and unreadable if one is not really careful.
