Realistic Coal Mine Operation Questions

I am thinking about how to provide realistic rail services to model coal mines. Walthers "New River Mine" has 3 coal loading tracks and Walthers "Diamond Coal Mine" has 2, with different size processing buildings sitting above them. I am assuming that the different tracks are for different sizes of coal. But, how many coal hoppers would be filled per track per day? And, how would successive hoppers on the same siding be moved under the chute to be filled? Assuming that the mine does not have its own railroad engine, are cars moved by releasing and applying brakes on a graded siding? Or is there some mechanical device?

Also, how many men work on a shift at a mine with this size processing building. And, how many shifts are typically used per day? Assuming 1950s mining practices. This will give me some idea of how many old passenger cars to put on the "Miners Special" mixed train.

Thanks for ideas or references.

Steve

 

A good site for pics.
http://www.coal-miners-in-kentucky.com/Index.html

The hoppers would be spotted uphill and would be let downhill by gravity and an operator using the hand break. If the loadout was on level ground the cars would be spotted by and winch system that would pull the cars under. Another method that's more modern is a front end loader would push the cars to the desired location.

For number of cars loaded it really depends on how much was the demand for coal was. Also the length of tracks above the loader was would depend on how much could be loaded, but if demand was too high that the cars needed exceeded the capacity then another mine run would be needed. So more operational fun!

One rule I like to go by is a compression factor of one-third. The loadout near my house would load 60 cars (now 50) but 60 cars is a little too much for me, but 20 is more manageable. Since 20 is one third 60 I use the compression of one third for all other loadouts. So if a loadout loaded 30 cars a day on the layouts version would load 10.

For miners, many would live in a coal camp ran by the mine operators. Not sure how many would work in the operation. All three shifts would be normal I think. So if the mine and loadout wasn't connected to a camp 3 trains should do it. I can try to ask my Grandfather how many worked at Capito in the days.

Feel free to ask more!

 

Something I have been interested in using in an N scale coal mine display is the low profile locomotives that were trolley operated or battery operated, examples pictured in various pictures in that link, shuttling coal, miners, and equipment in and out of the mines. Heights are typically under 6' height for battery and far under 6' for some of the trolley units. That interest has led me to developing a chassis that can accomplish that (a battery style unit in Nn3) and considered making them available for sale but after extensive searching of modelling sites I've begun to feel that maybe I'm the only one with that interest as I've not seen any such equipment available and after countless searches have only seen a few depictions of those small locos and in static displays only. Unless it's just the absence of any existing chassis small enough to build a loco with under 6' scale height (7/16") meaning a chassis height around .41" or 10.4 mm. Is there any interest in such a thing or should I just consider it my own little quirk?

Here's a link that might be useful. http://industrialrail.5u.com/

 

I like that idea! To be honest I just think not many has thought such a small engine would be possible to produce, well at least one that runs.

I think industrial modelers and micro layout guys would really be interested in one. I can imagine some interesting scenes and maybe potential micro layouts being built to feature these small yet cool engines.

 

Not all coal is the same and not all mines are the same either. Some coal is used for heating, power plants, making coke, etc. Then there are different sizes of coal. Some mines served only one customer. Others served more. Large tipples would have a large double ended yard with the load out being in the center. Empties would be on one side, go through the loader and be stored on the other side. The RR would bring empty cars to the mine daily or several times a day and take away the filled cars. Smaller mines might have a smaller area for the yard and have only a one sided yard. The empty cars would be pushed in, loaded and then pulled out the same side they were pushed in. They may utilize a nearby siding for storage of both empty as well as loaded cars. Everything depended on the mine and its production. Some very small family owned mines may have only had a truck dump and loaded one RR car in a day or two.

Most coal unit trains today are for power generation. These are flood loaded meaning the train does not stop at the mine and no switching is done. Instead the train, including the locomotives, moves under the loader at a slow steady speed and the cars are loaded. Potentially, an entire train could thus be loaded in about twenty minutes. However, I doubt if any flood loaders can process enough coal to load 10,000+ ton unit trains every twenty minutes.

 

A lot of great photos and information in the Morning Sun Books:
Appalachian Coal mines and railroads
Volume 1 : Kentucky
Volume 2 : Virginia
Really love those books.

 

That's what led me to this thinking when my searches found nothing available. I got to thinking it may have been more the lack of operable equipment than the lack of interest but then on the other hand, after all of these years SOMEBODY would have figured it out if the interest was there. I felt that way until I started down the road to making one. There's plenty of good reason that there isn't anything. LOL But I'm a retired old industrial automation design guy making all sorts of automated devices for industrial applications and I didn't let such "a little thing" get me down. Or even the countless little things that were encountered. Getting this device to perform as it does harbors the very essence of the old saying, "The devil's in the details". Anyway, here's a Youtube link to the one off machined prototypes that have seen countless hundreds and thousands of running hours experimenting with every kind of design detail. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2bUwqgIAOK6u-8Kg6nyXWA

I apologize for the poor video quality but they weren't intended for public consumption, just informative for a few folks I had some correspondence with on the topic. The hard part is done and extensively tested, finding the details that matter and performing beautifully. The mechanicals are pretty well licked but I still need to finish the countless details required for actual production and marketing of a product. And with the knowledge gained this far I am entertaining other chassis applications that could benefit from the extremely small size that has been sorted out in this one. We'll see where it goes but the intent to produce something is still alive at this point. It's encouraging to hear that there may be sufficient interest to make it a viable product.

 

Here's a link you may find useful as you progress. It's a real gold mine for all sorts of mining and industrial equipment details and pictures as well as their industrial and mining locomotive line. It's a 1928 Jeffrey Manufacturing Company catalog, a free Google Books download. For mining locomotives and industrial locomotives, check pages 92, 116, 631 - 638, and 663 - 683. Then peruse the rest. You'll likely find something useful. https://books.google.com/books?id=v...=onepage&q=Jeffrey mining locomotives&f=false

 

Okay that is one of the coolest things I've ever seen in N Scale. It's so small yet it runs so smooth! The catalog has lots of good info. Those mine locos are really cool, we have one on display in town and I think I'll have to go take a closer look at it soon.

 

Tracktoo, That is really a nice accomplishment. It has me thinking how I could set-up the mine entrance to use that engine.

It also seems like that mechanism would work well in trolly cars with interiors.

 

That's on the fire-up road! That was actually my next planned effort. When this unit is completed and as I get the opportunity (access to machine time) I'm going to work on a straight forward power truck for eight wheel applications with a height around 8.5 - 9 mm off the rails (the current is 10.4 mm) and with at least one application in mind, an N scale trolley chassis that will turn a tight scale radius, under 30' (2.25"). And with the height off the rails low enough that it will be below window height affording the opportunity for a believable interior instead of profile silhouette stickers or blanked out windows. That too originated from my own desire for a proper PCC trolley as I was used to seeing in Pittsburgh. And all with DCC as an option.

BTW, DCC is very tough in the mine engine due to absurdly limited space. It requires shoehorning the smallest known CT decoder into the last cc of space available. That's actually what I'm working on right now, some redesigns for a more service friendly decoder installation for the mine loco. I've had it installed and it works quite well as the DCC features do, but the decoder is not easy to remove and re-install when dismantling for cleaning and service. That ease of servicing may just not be able to be fully realized with present technology but I'll still get it the best I can. But in straight DC it's actually a very straight forward package to service.

For the mine applications you could always just have one train shuttling about, especially if it was hauling miners or equipment in and out, but a string of loaded coal cars might appear a bit peculiar, hauling coal out and then back IN. To address that I was considering having a double track with two trains in operation, running counter rotation, out of the mine entrance and into a fairly typical shed type, covered unloading house. Once in the unloading house it is hiding their action. That station would be of some length and built against a hillside where the tracks could continue a loop into the mountain and then back out of the entrance again, or in the case of the empties, the reverse of that. The viewer would then see only loaded trains coming out of the mine entrance and to the unloading house and then the empty trains coming back out of the unloading house and back into the mine entrance. Between the mine entrance and the unloading shed there could be switches and a yard with all sorts of wheeled and stationary mining paraphernalia to complete the scene. Lots of equipment is used around a mine and you could go wild there. And if feeling extra ambitious, a viewing window in the fascia with a detailed underground scene could be made that would be just..... I get all perclept just thinking about it.

 

Thanks. It really does run as smooth as anything I've ever run, regardless of size and scale. And silent, too. With the sixty + MPH gearing you can get speed enough to hear the rail clicks but that's as it should be. At the lower gearings, say 25 or so MPH tops, it's really stone silent.

It would be interesting to see what you have on display in your town. Some of these things get really small. Especially those used to accumulate cars underground to make up a train. The pictures in the Ohio Vintage Coal link give many examples of the range. In N scale (on Z track for narrow gauge, Nn3) the size I'm working with is actually a decent sized unit, in the ten ton range, where there are many that are 2 -4 ton and really small. In HO (n3) some of those smaller units could probably be done as you have near twice the scale size to work with. This has been a fun project as well as a really challenging one. I'm glad to see it stirs some interest in others as it did me.

 

Some pics. The engine is a Jeffrey.

 

You may not realize that this kind of equipment is still manufactured today. This was Brookville's original product, they expanded into other things like streetcars and full-sized locomotives. Underground mining rail equipment was their first line of business. Nice photos here of some of the low-clearance equipment:

http://www.brookvillecorp.com/mining-rail.asp

 

Making something that low to the rails that actually works in N scale is pretty damn awesome ^5

 

I thought just wheeled equipment was used nowadays, cool!

And tracktoo, can you tell me about the cars used in the video?

 

VR, here's a link. There are other examples as well. https://www.shapeways.com/product/9...-of-ten?li=search-results-1&optionId=40891520 They are very delicate, have fixed couplers, and are very light. But they roll well with 33" FVM Z scale metal wheels. I would like to see link couplers and also some different style cars as many were used, often made by the mine or a nearby fabricator. One example would be like that in your photos above.

I am out of town right now but will be back in a few days and I will catch up then. I fear this conversation may have derailed the original thread a bit but hope it's been at least interesting if not directly useful.

 

Here's a link to a historical collections of photos of all the items Jeffery made during their manufacturing days. It's rather large but I think it's worth the time. The company is still in business here in Columbus, but not in manufacturing sadly. My father worked for the company and I've fond memories of all the visits I got to take looking at the various machines.

http://ohsweb.ohiohistory.org/ohiop...ing Company (Columbus, Ohio)&start=1&mode=all

 

i suppose the biggest difference is if it is coal mining, as in an underground mine
or strip mining, as in surface mining (usually the top or side of a mountain)
lower anthracite coal mining region in PA was the later
northern anthracite coal mining region in PA was underground
then, of course, there is the difference of anthracite mining and bituminous mining in
western PA, which if i understand it correctly, was for coke production in the iron and
steel industry
and finally, there was/is coal mining in other places
i speak of these only because i know them firsthand
fwiw....
sincerely--
Gary