Pricing ourselves out of a hobby

SPsteam May 25, 2016

  1. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Yes. True. But has income for all also gone up, keeping pace? Only if using the faulty science of averaging. For more and more folks, there is less and less dicretionary income available.
     
  2. Logtrain

    Logtrain TrainBoard Member

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    The only thing that has gone up besides MSRP and home prices is corp Americas profits!
     
  3. Point353

    Point353 TrainBoard Member

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    Exactly who is this "we" and what proportion of the customer base does it represent?
    Do the majority of customers really want a loco whose price has nearly doubled because it has been fitted with DCC and sound?
    Or are the various manufacturers simply trying to outdo one another with feature creep?
    Several of the new locos that have come to market recently appeal to me, but I've passed on them since they were only offered fully loaded.
     
  4. glennac

    glennac TrainBoard Member

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    We can't have it both ways. It's either the state that it is now, or, we go back to the Arnold / Rapido / MiniTrix / Tyco / Mahano quality of yore AND the cheap prices of that time.

    The vocal minority here in the forums apparently doesn't reflect the buying public that are snapping up the quality products that are being produced. And the manufacturerers are listening, otherwise they wouldn't be wasting their time and capital.

    Of course the 'good 'ol days' of the 60's and 70's are looking good. It's because most of the folks complaining are in retirement and on a limited budget. I dare say the story might be different if most here were still at income-earning age and had the extra cash that might result in.

    Bear in mind, there are probably a majority of quieter folks here that aren't complaining because products long sought after are finally being produced or their particular railroad is finally getting some attention.

    And don't give us "The kids!" "It's all about the kids!" Balderdash! I couldn't have afforded to get into model railroading when I was a kid in the 60's and 70's. The only reason I became interested was because an uncle gave me some HO stuff he didn't want anymore. The same is true today. No kid is going to get into this hobby because he's got the cash to do so. We were ALL subsidized when we started as a kid.
     
    KevinTheSPF, Kez and wpsnts like this.
  5. emaley

    emaley TrainBoard Supporter

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    Price increases in this hobby are about what you would expect. Everything is going up. Plastic model kits I started out buying for 15 dollars went to 35, and are now near 100. Hobbies are not cheap. Nothing has changed there except we have become our parents, "when I was a kid, a coke was a nickel". I wish things were cheaper also, but this is what I like, so I buy what I can, when I can, same as I always did. It takes more time to get what I want, but then again the fun lasts longer
     
  6. glennac

    glennac TrainBoard Member

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    And yet there have been plenty of threads here in these forums oohing and awing over these releases and "Mine just arrived today!" So it's not just the manufacturerers. There's plenty of interest to finance these projects and folks here are buying them. There are lots of folks lurking in these forums reading & buying that never, or rarely post as often as the vocal minority here.
     
  7. mtntrainman

    mtntrainman TrainBoard Supporter

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    I dont believe we are the "Vocal Minority". There are more lurkers thn you might believe who just figure it aint worth complaining about...haters are gonna hate...on both sides of the issue. It is what it is !!
     
  8. Point353

    Point353 TrainBoard Member

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    Likewise there are many threads ranting about how some latest and greatest new release, which was raved about the previous month, has stopped functioning properly this month. Following that are the complaints about having to pay shipping charges to return the modern marvel to the "manufacturer" for repairs, the length of time that the owner is deprived of the use of his new acquisition, and the eventual failure of said repairs to actually rectify the problem - if not make the situation worse.

    I'd much rather buy a current production Kato F-unit, which can be had for about $60.
     
  9. Mr. SP

    Mr. SP Passed away August 5, 2016 In Memoriam

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    Prices have gone up on about everything. When I started driving gas was twenty cents a gallon. It got to over four bucks not that long ago. I remember Milky Way candy bars for a nickel when I was a kid. They are now around a buck fifty but kids still buy them.
    I bought my first Athearn GP-9 in 1961 for $7.95. I had to assemble it and it had the old Hi-Fi drive in it.Now the Athearn Genesis GP--9 is about $200. The new model is better looking and running.
    I bought Athearn and MDC/Roundhouse freight car kits for $1.79 and as I prefer to build my freight cars I now buy Accurail and Bowser kits for around $15.
    Prices have gone up but back in 1964 I worked for $2.25 a hour.
     
  10. Inkaneer

    Inkaneer TrainBoard Member

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    I disagree. The largest factor in the extreme pricing we see today is due to smaller runs of rolling stock. Locomotive pricing has not appreciated as much as that of rolling stock. Atlas and Kato locomotives are listing for about $110-119. That is list price without DCC. That is about 20% more than Atlas and Kato locomotives sold for (list price) 20-25 years ago. However, the Atlas 90 ton hopper has increased in price about 250 %. This is the very same hopper that I bought for $2.25 in 1982. Twenty five years ago the price (list) was about $7.95- $8.95. Now the list price is $19.95. Same exact car. So the big question is why? I say it is because the producers do not want to have any inventory laying around and tying up capital. So they have smaller runs which means a heavier fixed cost loading and pass the extra cost onto the customer. Example, lets say the production fixed costs to do a run of cars is $1,000. This is money paid to the Chinese factory who will actually make the car. If we run 1,000 cars each car has $1 in production fixed costs. But if we cut the production run to just 100 cars then each car has $10 in fixed costs. Now add in our overhead (salaries, rent, benefits, etc.) These costs are also fixed and have to be spread over a smaller number of product. Again with only 10% of the product being produced the costs are multiplied 10 times. Variable costs per item will remain about the same. But the fixed costs are the killer.
     
  11. brokemoto

    brokemoto TrainBoard Member

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    In 1964, $2,25 per hour was a princely sum of money. The Federal Minimum Wage in 1964 was $1,25 per hour.

    In 1973, five dollars per hour was a princely sum. In 1973, the Federal Minimum Wage was $1,60 per hour.
     
  12. tracktoo

    tracktoo TrainBoard Member

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    There are the anecdotes we all have and then there are the trend lines that dictate the reality that we and the manufacturers are living in for thirty plus years now. And regardless if the model train industry is suffering waning interest, quality demands, or all of the rest, at the end of the weeping and gnashing of teeth, when the average customer doesn't have the money to spend the average manufacturer has fewer customers. ;) http://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  13. Rossford Yard

    Rossford Yard TrainBoard Member

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    In the past, we have documented that model train prices have risen about with inflation, and gotten better to boot. Plus, there are more choices than ever, mostly due to our vocal minority demands. We can say what we want, but our wallets have spoken out for quality.

    As noted above, there is too little money, not to mention too little time (a result of longer hours, two jobs, etc?) for the middle class to participate as much as wanted. Maybe even the higher divorce rate so Dad isn't there to build a layout for junior. But, go to the WGH - the natural interest in trains is still there.

    And, read other trade journals (like golf, tennis, etc.) and nearly every leisure industry is singing from the same songbook. And, speaking of the same songbook, I recall feeling a little guilty, based on articles in MR, back as a kid in 1965 or so, for only buying "shake the box" Athearn blue box.

    Short version, while numbers are higher, the headlines have barely changed over the 55 years I have been an active model railroader......
     
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  14. rogergperkins

    rogergperkins TrainBoard Member

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    Is there actual data that document the number of people in model railroading is declining? I read the title and first post as state as fact there are few people in model railroad currently than in the past. I would like references or a link to read the data.
    I started in n-scale model railroad in 1973-74. I was a poor graduate student newly out of the USAF and married with a teenage child. As I recall, the MTL boxcars I purchased then were about
    $4.00. Times have changed indeed! The B&O MTL stock cars I just purchased are marked $19.90. Some items are 5 times more expensive than they were when I started. The BLI M 1 B is certainly far more sophisticated than the 2-8-2 in an Atlas set that was my first n-scale locomotive and cost about $30.00 for the set.
    My wife and I are retired and have been for about 11 years; thus we are on a fixed income.
    This is one of many forums I read, and I do not see any indication in any the other forums that interest in the hobby is declining.
     
    BoxcabE50 likes this.
  15. brokemoto

    brokemoto TrainBoard Member

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    I was a bit later than you , but still........................

    I could not afford the tools to build my own stuff or even do a decent bash for a long time. Athearn Blue Box and Varney kits were what I could afford. That was what I used. Varney was not putting out much at the time. In fact, Kramer of Baltimore, aKa LL, was about to buy out Varney, or just had and was sorting out things.
     
  16. wpsnts

    wpsnts TrainBoard Supporter

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    Roger,
    You beat me to the punch. I was just about to ask the same question. I too would be interested in this information.

    And just as a side note, in 1969 I had a paper route, got up at 5:00 AM every morning, rode my bicycle to deliver the 135 papers, not Mom or Dad driving me, go to school, do my homework, daily chores, participate fully in Boy Scouting and support my N Scale addiction.
     
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  17. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    The answer is no. This is a world wide hobby. The only survey usually done has been by an HO-centric magazine, (which also does not reflect N scaling as well as possible), and their largest percentage of circulation is from North America. But there is nothing in poll or survey out there, which generates any adequate response. Not even to reliably forecast a trend. What does happen would be considered as being statistically insignificant...
     
  18. DCESharkman

    DCESharkman TrainBoard Member

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    Wow, such a wild thread... I started one like back a few months and it was barely active.

    Prices have gone up due to the enhancements made to the products. More detailing means higher tooling costs.

    When I was young, in the mid 1970's, I did the the yard work for some neighbors, and in the winter cleared out driveways. Made some cash doing that that went more into buying records, chasing girls or saving up to buy a car. Started playing in a Rock and Roll Band and made a lot more money, it went into better cars and chasing girls and more records. No time of interest in model trains at that time. I probably afford them, they just were not on my mind at that time.

    Went to college, graduated and then went on to a career. Made some money, went for faster cars and CD's and high end audio. Shifted careers, still made money bought a house and slowed down a bit and had time on my hands for the first time in my adult life. Then I started buying trains when I was 35 years old. Built a layout and then amassed way too much stuff.

    So to say the younger generation is lost from modeling trains, I think is shortsighted. They are still in the fast cars and girl chasing mode. Or at least I would like to hope so......

    So I have no recollection of the days before 1995, or the prices for locomotives and rail cars. I have seen the prices increase to the point where I have dramatically slowed acquisitions, but not totally off. It is more like just buying the pieces I want like the BLMA tank cars. Yes they ware a bit expensive, but as almost the only new purchase for the year, it was not so bad.

    Just like the features in automobiles have driven up the prices on cars, a similar model is in play in model railroading. And like automobiles, there are the cheap cars and the luxury cars, there are cheap and luxury locomotives and rail cars.

    The same economic model pervades many industries like groceries and clothing too. So it isn't just about model railroading. Nothing is as inexpensive as it used to be.

    The only industry that bucks this trend is consumer electronics. We had $10,000 Plasma TV's at one time, now we have LED TVs with the same picture quality for $1500. This is due to the real mass market we all are supporting with our consumer electronics purchases.
     
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  19. Inkaneer

    Inkaneer TrainBoard Member

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    I'm sorry but your explanation just does not fly. Read my prior post. In the last 25 years Atlas and Kato locomotives (analog)have increased about 20-25%. Okay, no problem, better detail, inflation, etc. Now an Atlas 90 ton hopper which has remained unchanged for the last 35 years has increased in price in the last 25 years from$ 7.95-$8.95 to the current price of$19.95. That is an increase of 223-251% . Why has newly tooled locomotives only increased in price one tenth of what a hopper that was designed thirty-five years ago? You can't say it is due to enhancements made to the hopper because there are none. Whereas the newly tooled locomotives have been enhanced.
     
  20. Rocket Jones

    Rocket Jones TrainBoard Member

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    Increasing the cost of the existing hoppers (for example) over and above inflation allows the manufacturers to offer new stuff at a lower cost. You set prices across your entire line, not just item by item.
     
    Kez likes this.

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