3 Reasons CN will be in trouble!

BC Rail King May 7, 2001

  1. BC Rail King

    BC Rail King E-Mail Bounces

    904
    4
    24
    CN is a great company, or it least it looks that way on the outside. It is the 4th or 5th biggest RR in North America I believe, and it is making billions of dollars!

    Here are three huge problems that will shoot the RR in the foot about the same time M.Tellier and his managment ganag are around retiring age :rolleyes:

    1) Not repainting bridges. CN has taken a policy that they will not repaint bridges. The study they commisioned said this will reduce a bridges life span by aprox. 10%. Well, I got some news for you, since that 10% is gone now, alot of major bridges all across Canada on the CN system will need to be replaced or there will be a serious accident with in the next 7 years. (Cisco bridge being one of these...it is in very sad shape, and if there was a fall out there it would definatly take the crew with it).

    2) Not repainting units has started to make the company look really cheap, but this is a common practice with RRs so I guess there is no suprise there!

    3) While M.Tellier was at Thorton Yard giving his annual speech he invited questions. One employ asked if they could get better ventillation in the shop as it gets quite gassy in there. It wasn't snarky at all, just a question. Then M.Tellier snapped back at the employ "Take the bloody doors off the building that will do you alot of good", later that week the shop manager was ordered to take the doors off the shop. I feel sorry for these workers come about October when they will all freeze to death!

    Dane N.
     
  2. Chessie_SD50_8563

    Chessie_SD50_8563 Permanently dispatched

    480
    0
    20
    Well we all know teller is not one of the brightest people in the world. (Kinda Like Ron Krebs. He has done alot for the company but at the suffering of the employees) Not repainting units has no major effect on a Units life span (unlike the bridges) CSX actually is playing it safe and only repainting the worst of the worst CR units (like the SD60M there rebuilding now) and leaving the fairly decent units runing. While to a railfan this might not look good. It does save the company one heck of a ton of money (I heard somewhere that the paint RR use cost around $35-60 a gallon) I remeber hearing from a friend at holladayburg shops (long before NS had it) even with the vents a few people wore gasmask. and were not talking the dust mask you pick up at CVS, Right Aid or Exards were talking those milatary and Haz-Mat things that have the gogles built into them and the ones the UP steam crew uses when they go though tunnels.
     
  3. JPindar

    JPindar TrainBoard Member

    158
    0
    24
    Something so simple as repainting bridges does not constitute a company being in trouble.

    Bridges, sure, it happens, but, (I feel like I am on 20/20) GIVE ME A BREAK!

    I'm going to hunt down the materials on this, I have to see this and interpret it for myself.

    Jon Pindar
    CP Board Moderator
     
  4. friscobob

    friscobob Staff Member

    10,534
    707
    129
    Clark Hungerford, president of the Frisco in the late 1940s, was not a fan of fancy paint schemes. Under his stewardship, Frisco's black & yellow locomotives started to have less & less yellow, losing side & nose stripes. At least one F-unit WAS sold black, save for the lettering on the sides.
    Paint doesn't haul one ounce of revenue. If it did, all the ex-Kennecott. ICG and Conrail diesels Katy got would have been in John Deere green & yellow by merger date. However, to this eye a decent paint job DOES convey a bit of company pride and smartness.
     
  5. rsn48

    rsn48 TrainBoard Member

    2,263
    1
    43
    The source for BC Rail King's statement is from a senior manager at Thornton yard. What he left off of his Paul Tellier story is that Paul phoned back and said if taking the doors off didn't work to reduce deisel emmissions, then take the roof of as well.

    The life of a steel bridge apparently is 100 years, and if unpainted this is reduced by 10% so it then become 91 years. So if in the short term you want to reduce costs, you don't paint the bridges, but at some point that philosophy will catch up to you.

    So now the question is: How old are some of those steel bridges out there?
     
  6. DaveCN5710

    DaveCN5710 Profile Locked

    446
    0
    19
    Well Mr.Telliers comments kind of bother me , if it is true .

    But to say CN is in trouble because of non-repainted Locomotives is pure non-sense :rolleyes:

    You also need to remember that CN has just purchased 300 new locomotives in since 1996 .
    Basically all the older locomotives are going to be weeded out and replaced with more reliable newer locomotives which will make CN a more reliable carrier .

    Being a Engineer , you want power that runs good as opposed to a pretty paint job . Looks aren't everything . You want something that runs well more than anything . I could care less what the paint looks like , I bet CN feels the same way also , so that makes them a bad company , I don't think so personally .

    Anyways this topic is going nowhere and I see some possible flame material here so this topic is getting closed . If anyone has any problem with this being closed we'll handle it through email .
     
  7. FriscoCharlie

    FriscoCharlie Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

    11,140
    261
    135
    This discussion has been unlocked and will remain that way if the thread can be discussed in a reasonable fashion.


    Charlie

    [ 08 May 2001: Message edited by: E-8 ]
     
  8. Colonel

    Colonel Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

    8,721
    1,110
    119
    This topic is really about Asset Management and I feel I may comment on this since this is my field of profession at the current time.

    The issue of not painting bridges as a one off may not be critical providing a risk assessment is carried out to ensure no safety risk to users.

    If this policy was to spread across all rail infrastructure then there is a danger of running down a system to a point where either major periodical maintenace is required or the functionality of the system suffers.

    What would happen if a decision was made not to ballast clean track due to budget shortfalls?

    Firstly the track would degrade over time which would require speed restrictions then possibly major works to bring the track back to standard. If the track was allowed to deteriorate further then the risk of derailments increase.

    It is proven fact when budgets are cut one of the first areas is maintenance but eventually it catches up too bite in a big way. Rail infrastructure is a heavy maintenance industry and therfore requires long term planning to ensure full untilisation of its assets. It also requires heavy maintenace to ensure performance of the asset.

    Not painting a bridge may look on the short term look unpleasant but it will reduce the life of the bridge even if only by 10%. To build a bridge the size of Sydney Harbour bridge would cost approx $500 million dollars
    10% is $50 million now thats a lot of paint. The Sydney Harbour bridge is painted continuosly and has a full time team of maintainers. The Sydney Harbour bridge is approx 80 years old and at its current maintenance levels will be around far longer than me

    This is just some food for thought and is not directed at any railroad.
     
  9. rsn48

    rsn48 TrainBoard Member

    2,263
    1
    43
    I think part of the problem is the huge bonuses that are paid out to CEO's for cost reduction. Lets say I am the CEO of the Acme Roadrunner Class One Rail Road. Now I save the company lots of money, which pays out dividends to the stock holder; they are happy and I get a nice fat bonus. But I know I will only be CEO for around 5 to 8 years of my beloved Acme Roadrunner Class One RR. So what do I care if some of my decisions aren't going to impinge on the RR until substantially latter, long after I am gone. I think the "cut back" philosophy is going to boomerang right back eventually and I am not just talking rail road's anymore.

    If you don't paint this, don't adjust that, don't replace another thing, then eventually you have to replace more, adjust more, and buy more. The only question is: On who's watch?
     
  10. friscobob

    friscobob Staff Member

    10,534
    707
    129
    For an example of defered maintenance and squeezing everything out of a system with little resources, one needs to look at the Kansas City Southern under William Deramus. While he DID standardize the paint schemes and introduce extra-long trains, he also cut back on track maintenance and used low-grade ballast (the chat from the lead & zinc mines). The results over time were disastrous- frequent derailments as big trains crept over bad track. Only a major management change and a new philosophy on property upkeep saved the KCS. Today, it's a busy railroad, with welded rail everywhere.
    Modern motive power moves tonnage between KC and the Gulf.
    I could point out the follies of Tellier's logic with other examples (the Katy, the Penn Central), but hopefully you get my point.
    Liking a particular railroad does not mean you have to like everything the railroad's
    management does ;)
     
  11. Alan

    Alan Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

    10,798
    460
    127
    Look at what happened her in the UK. Track maintenace was woefully inadequate for an extended period, and it took some serious derailments and deaths before action was taken.

    Then a massive programme of track checking and renewals was started, costing huge amounts of money, and the government saying that money was no object! If they had said that in the past, they (we the taxpayers) could have paid far less for the same end result :(

    Short-termism in railways is just plain dangerous! Especially so in countries like ours with high speed trains.
     
  12. StickyMonk

    StickyMonk TrainBoard Member

    1,941
    129
    36
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alan:
    could have paid far less for the same end result :(
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <font color="336633">And maybe no lives would have been lost (the Hatfeild crash)</font>
     
  13. E&NRailway

    E&NRailway TrainBoard Member

    401
    5
    19
    Usually trains in North America aren't running as fast as the ones in Britain. For example, Rail America has put off maintenance on the E&N, and we have passenger service too but running only at 40 mph so a derailment would not be so tragic.
     
  14. Gregg Mahlkov

    Gregg Mahlkov Guest

    0
    0
    0
    I think you all forget that Paul Tellier is first and foremost a politician and that the person actually running the railroad is Hunter Harrison. Mr. Harrison may neglect to paint bridges but you can be sure he is spending the money on items more important to the safe operation of trains. I question the reduction in the life of a steel bridge because of lack of regular paint in other than a highly corrosive area, such as near a body of salt water or a chemical plant. I do not believe it is anywhere near as high as ten percent. In addition, most railroad bridges were so overbuilt due to the dynamic augment of steam locomotives that they could lose more than 50 percent of their strength and still be safe. What happened to the moderator? :cool: :confused:

    [ 09 May 2001: Message edited by: Gregg Mahlkov ]
     
  15. rsn48

    rsn48 TrainBoard Member

    2,263
    1
    43
    I am commanding officer of an Army Cadet corp (actually squadron = engineers) in North Vancouver. I took over about one year ago. The way I run and do things is different from the last CO. The commanding officer sets the tone and atmosphere, sets priorities, smiles and waves at the public and kiss babies, interfaces with the community and politicians, handles routine matters and puts out fires, and also determines the next generation of leaders, after him/her. In a corportion, some of this is done in conjunction with a board of directors so the CEO doesn't have complete free reign, although input from the CEO definitely has influence on the board.

    So the head of an organization makes the decisions, parameters, and priorities of objectives and goals; some one else might pull the trigger.

    [ 09 May 2001: Message edited by: rsn48 ]
     
  16. E&NRailway

    E&NRailway TrainBoard Member

    401
    5
    19
    Hey CN is North America's best run RR. Obiviously Mr. Tellier knows what he's doing. While I don't agree with some decisions CN made under his command, he has got to be the best thing that ever happed to Canadian National.
     
  17. DaveCN5710

    DaveCN5710 Profile Locked

    446
    0
    19
    CN is not in trouble . Other Railroads are in trouble . CN is the about the only Railroad out there that is making anykind of profit , and by the way , they are doing it in record numbers ;)

    Paul Tellier is a excellent business man . He is a very nice man as well , I know , I have had the opportunity to meet him , very nice man and down to earth . I have nothing but respect for the man .

    CN WAS in trouble back in the 80's and thru the 1990's . CN completety turned things around and what strikes me as funny is that Mr.Tellier is never satisfied , he always strives for better . Thats rare .

    As for Hunter Harrison , yes , Gregg he is bascially in charge of the operational issues at CN . I don't always agree with his ways , actually , never . But I feel secure working for CN . It is a very well oiled machine and it just keeps getting better .

    I don't agree with Dane's conclusion on why CN is in trouble , actually it's comical because CN is as successful now as ever . What Dane needs to understand is that I have been working at CN for only 8 years . Basically everyday of my life for the last 8 years have evovled around this place .

    I have seen alot of changes and I will probably see alot more . I don't always agree with the changes that happen but I am a employee and I am here to earn a paycheck , not to question management and the decisions that they make .

    I am also involved with the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers . I know how management is , I have sat through contract negotiations .

    CN has purchased new locomotives and are planning on getting more . Sure for the railfans out there , the older , more smaller engines are a nice thing to see but for CN to remain strong and successful the older power needs to go .

    They older stuff requires more maitenence and it simply is just not reliable . Trust me , I know

    ;)

    To simply say CN is in trouble because of lack of pretty paint jobs is silly . Also just because Paul Tellier snapped at somebody is silly as well . Do we all know the circumstances ?

    It's funny because a few years ago I sent a letter to Mr.Tellier expressing my concern with the CNIC merger , he actually mailed me back . How many CEO's of a major company would do that . Some of you may say it was somebody else who sent me the letter , well it was Mr.Tellier .

    He is a great man , anyone who says different don't know what they are talking about . All I know is this .

    I work for CN . CN is not in trouble . I have seen the numbers and CN has made tremendous progress over the lst 10 years , and CN is still making steps in the right direction .

    I may not always agree with their philosophies but as long as I got a job and the trains are being ran , and I can support my wife and kids , buy nice things , go nice places , I am not complaining . I have never been laid off , I have the opportunity to make alot of money , the sky is the limit at CN . Great Company to work for , we have the newest locomotives , we ARE the highest paid Engineers in North America

    Basically I gave up my Moderators position because this topic bothered me . I thought it was flame bait , maybe it is . I was not going to reply to this topic but it's time for you to hear the truth about CN , not from someone who don't work there .

    My word is good , after all I spend more than 40 hours a week on a Locomotive with a CN logo on the side . I have said this before and I will say it again . Working for CN makes me proud , I would not work for anyother railroad . I would get a job somewhere else before I would work for anyother carrier in the industry .

    Mark my words
    CN is NOT in TROUBLE

    [ 09 May 2001: Message edited by: DaveCN5623 ]
     
  18. BC Rail King

    BC Rail King E-Mail Bounces

    904
    4
    24
    10% Life Span Reduction for BRIDGES is what CN is going under after there own study. They have already had to start some replacement projects, I have noticed. The Cisco bridge is not supposed to be able to be in operable condition in about 7 years. The layer of paint prevent corosion, soemthing you learn in grade 7. When the paint comes off, the corosion comes. Then you get holes, missing bolts and all that fun stuff. I just wish I knew where a recent close up shot of Cisco is. Some of the legs on that bridge are hurting.

    Tellier has brought the RR to a good place, but you can't cut too much out of a system...when that line gets hit between safe and unsafe you are in trouble. CN and almost very North American RR isn't there..yet. I would definatly watch it. I am not scared to ride Via of CN Rails, but I definatly would like to see some more maintance services be provided in the near future.

    Happy Railroading!

    Dane N. :cool:
     
  19. JPindar

    JPindar TrainBoard Member

    158
    0
    24
    I am seeing things I dont like here, Dave proves a good point, someone is hung up on bridges.

    I am taking a temporary leave of abcense until this matter is completely resolved.

    Jon
     
  20. DaveCN5710

    DaveCN5710 Profile Locked

    446
    0
    19
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JPindar:
    I am seeing things I dont like here, Dave proves a good point, someone is hung up on bridges.

    I am taking a temporary leave of abcense until this matter is completely resolved.

    Jon
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>well I am going to work . Dane has taken a good forum and ruined it .

    I contributed alot to this site , and so has Jon , BC comes and goes as he chooses , it's funny , people , some anyways want me back , well as long as BC is a MOD it won't happen , Jon , you with me ???? Blake , anymore ??? We need changes here
    :rolleyes:
     

Share This Page